00:00:00:15 - 00:00:05:29
Andy Richardson
All right. Well, this is the Lucas episode. Lean. What did you think?

00:00:06:01 - 00:00:16:15
Madeline Richardson
I thought the whole episode was really insightful. I thought that he had a lot of insight for the work ethic of the daily life. And he said, lean. That's his. Yeah, lean.

00:00:16:15 - 00:00:43:17
Andy Richardson
So he's going to be going over lean concepts and how that applies to the AEC community, the AEC industry. So he's a lean expert and he does that in this field. And he came in for the day just to go over how we can improve our company 2096. And then after we did that, we went through and discussed how that would apply to others in the AEC community, AEC industry.

00:00:43:17 - 00:00:49:07
Andy Richardson
So was there anything that hit home with you during that discussion?

00:00:49:12 - 00:00:59:01
Madeline Richardson
Yeah, there was a quote that I ended up writing down and he said something like, if you behave the exact same way, the result will be the same. I thought, I just really like how that hit.

00:00:59:04 - 00:01:06:27
Andy Richardson
Yeah. So if you're doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same results, I believe Albert Einstein said that was the definition of insanity.

00:01:06:27 - 00:01:24:10
Andy Richardson
So don't be insane. Just listen to this episode and again and again and get something out of it. So my name is Andy Richardson and I've been doing this 26 years in the structural engineering field. This is my producer, Madeleine. Let's jump to the intro.

00:01:28:29 - 00:01:36:08
Madeline Richardson
Welcome to enhance, an AEC podcast, where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why.

00:01:36:11 - 00:01:45:27
Andy RIchardson
Okay, well, we're live now, so. Hey, Lucas, thanks for joining us on the podcast. So enhanced podcast. And it's been a busy day.

00:01:46:00 - 00:01:46:26
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:01:46:28 - 00:02:08:26
Andy RIchardson
With coming in and doing some consulting with us at 2096, but, wanted to just get you started with our first question. Sometimes we have a curveball, but, let's say that you were tasked with designing an inefficient system. How would you design it and how would you fix it?

00:02:08:29 - 00:02:31:20
Lucas Hahn
How would I design an inefficient system? I think the easiest way to do that would be to do it in a vacuum. So I wouldn't let anybody who's in the system participate in it. And I would just decide what all the steps are going to be. Okay. And I would put lots of handoffs in there, and I would put lots of gray areas in there and maybe even some places to rework things and do things over again.

00:02:31:21 - 00:02:39:06
Lucas Hahn
Do it over. Yeah, lots of inspection. Like every step should be checked. Okay. But not explain how to check those steps.

00:02:39:08 - 00:02:44:03
Andy RIchardson
Interesting. Okay. So, and then how would you.

00:02:44:06 - 00:03:00:02
Lucas Hahn
See the easy way to unravel that would be to fix the first thing I said. So I won't engage the people that do it. I'll do it in a vacuum. The way to unravel it would be to engage the people who do it. Yeah. So find the people who have the tasks in the process. Bring them in to find out why it's, painful for them.

00:03:00:09 - 00:03:21:23
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, it sounds like that's a big key to to being lean, right? Which is a big part of what you do. So, that's the next thing I want to do is just give a little bit of background into who you are. What? Why you're on the enhance ATC podcast. And why should people in the AEC industry even care?

00:03:21:26 - 00:03:34:07
Andy RIchardson
So maybe just give us a little background into who you are and then, you know, how you got into lean, and then we get to get into some more questions, but can you just start us out with your background?

00:03:34:09 - 00:03:52:26
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. So originally, leaving high school, going into college, I tinkered with electronics. I thought that's where I wanted to go. So be electrical engineer. You know, that was the first thing, my first double class made me say. That's not what I'm going to go do. No way. And I got introduced to civil engineering, and I started working at a civil engineering firm.

00:03:53:02 - 00:04:18:07
Lucas Hahn
And more specifically, they were letting me go out with the survey crews. And I just loved it. Like I'm outside. I can still use my math. I can still be creative. I can still do CAD and other things. And I became a professionally licensed land surveyor. And, you know, pretty early in my career, I'll get to the leading part, but I think I had a propensity for a lot of this stuff, like the improvement I was always looking for better ways to do it.

00:04:18:10 - 00:04:41:16
Lucas Hahn
I was always leveraging metrics. Well, I always understood process. It was just kind of innate in me since I'm a nine year old paper boy. So I climbed the ladder, pretty quickly at a multi-discipline, engineering firm. And oh eight, when the development market was crashing, you know, I was under a lot of pressure to bring new work in and started doing more energy sector work.

00:04:41:19 - 00:05:03:11
Lucas Hahn
And then, you know, not all that part of that story, but I ended up working directly in the energy sector for, natural Gas Company. And my first day there, they had lean continuous improvement consultants coming in, teaching us lean and process improvement and continuous improvement, and instantly clicked for me and started doing a lot of it with my team, at a team of 12 people.

00:05:03:14 - 00:05:21:05
Lucas Hahn
We were all energized. We loved doing it. It was a lot of fun. And then it just progressed to where, even though I said I worked really hard to get that lzw stamp, I don't use it. Yeah. So 11 years, I haven't surveyed anything. I haven't done any engineering. I now do strictly process improvement and continuous improvement.

00:05:21:09 - 00:05:22:20
Lucas Hahn
Okay. That's my life now.

00:05:22:24 - 00:05:24:26
Andy RIchardson
Do you miss the surveying and the engineering?

00:05:24:27 - 00:05:57:05
Lucas Hahn
There are moments I do, miss miss some of that. Especially a spring day where it's not too hot and it's not too cold and it's sunny. I miss kind of being out there. I also, in the company I spent most of my career. We did some premier projects. We did, so, like United Nations building or some of the tunnels in Manhattan, South Island, in the Middle East and some of these premier projects that it's kind of cool where you're at home and you turn the TV on and something you worked on is on there.

00:05:57:08 - 00:06:11:29
Lucas Hahn
So we we had some of that. We were kind of that level firm. So I really miss some of that. The Meadowlands Arena in where the Jets and the Giants play was a project. I worked on my entire career that started, you know, that started before I got there, and it was going after I left there.

00:06:11:29 - 00:06:37:18
Lucas Hahn
So, you know, you see football games on TV and you see stuff you worked on. It's kind of cool. So I do miss that. And I miss the process challenges that the engineering part brought. So different than the process challenges I have now. Or opportunities I should say. Right. But how we can leverage, efficient process in the engineering space to create, you know, actual profit and all these other things.[1]

00:06:37:20 - 00:06:46:22
Lucas Hahn
You know, I miss that. And it was pretty energized by by being in a competitive space where getting things done better and faster than everybody else was was key.

00:06:46:25 - 00:06:54:18
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. Okay. And you're still in the construction industry, I guess. Or what role are you in now?

00:06:54:19 - 00:07:19:03
Lucas Hahn
Well, so I'm just strictly dedicated to process improvement. We actually have an engineering and construction division at the natural gas company I work at. And for a little period of time, I only did process improvement to continue to permit for the engineering construction group. But now I work for the whole entity. So all the support functions like accounting and legal, and then the bulk of our business is actually operating our, our assets.

00:07:19:05 - 00:07:41:02
Lucas Hahn
And so, probably my biggest interactions, the bulk of my interactions now are on actually operating gas processing and gas transmission. Working with those teams. But engineering and construction still calls me. I still get to go work with them. And it's different because we're we're kind of like the the customer at the end of the day in the environment.

00:07:41:02 - 00:07:55:25
Lucas Hahn
I used to be in, right. So the engineering firm I started at the company I work at now wouldn't be hiring them. So we're kind of I'm kind of on the other side of the fence, so to speak, which is a different dynamic. But exciting. It provides a different type of opportunity for me.

00:07:55:29 - 00:08:12:07
Andy RIchardson
Right. Okay. And how did that transition happen? Or, you know, in terms of going from AEC, you know, surveyor in civil engineering to a lean guy?

00:08:12:09 - 00:08:35:27
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. It's that's that's kind of a somewhat tough question to, to answer. Because there isn't like this, like slip, like I went from that to this, when I got to the industry side of the fence and started learning the formal terminology and the formal language of it. What I realized is I've always been doing it.

00:08:35:29 - 00:08:50:10
Lucas Hahn
When I was nine years old, delivering newspapers, I was doing it. I didn't call it what Toyota calls it, but I get it like I did the thing, you know, it helped me. I got paid by the paper, not the hours. So get it. Get it done. You know, there's a wiffle ball game at 9:00. You better get done your paper up.

00:08:50:10 - 00:09:09:21
Lucas Hahn
So how do I develop processes? So when I first formally got the certification and the training on the industry side, I look back on my career and I said, well, the things that were going well for me in consulting engineering are these things that I'm now learning what they're called. So that that was kind of the transition.

00:09:09:21 - 00:09:30:02
Lucas Hahn
But going from industry, going from the supplier side to the industry side, was really a matter of I was traveling a lot, and my kids were at an age where I didn't want to travel a lot, and they just kept giving me an offer that kept getting better. And it was, you can stay home now, and, you can do this.

00:09:30:02 - 00:09:46:24
Lucas Hahn
And, you know, maybe your wife doesn't have to work anymore. And, so all of those components said, I'm going to go to the industry side, and, and I'm really glad I did because day one, we had been training my first day there. Okay, I walked in, they said, go back there all day for training. Oh, okay.

00:09:46:26 - 00:09:49:22
Andy RIchardson
So you get to you get to learn Lane and you made for it.

00:09:49:24 - 00:10:04:26
Lucas Hahn
They want it. They want. And what's interesting is some of the people who had been there for a couple of years at the time, were not buying in because they already were set in how they were doing it. To me, I thought this was the only way to do it because I didn't know any better. Yeah. And I think part of that made it a little easier for me to adapt as well.

00:10:04:29 - 00:10:27:13
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. Now, let's go ahead and jump into this because I think we want to make sure, you know, we're we're an AEC podcast, right? Architects, engineers, contractors. And and they may be thinking, this is for manufacturing. Yeah. Like lean. That sounds like Toyota. That sounds like, something I don't need to hear. Let me turn this off.

00:10:27:13 - 00:10:31:08
Andy RIchardson
So why should they keep listening? I mean, why why should they care about lean, I guess?

00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:03
Lucas Hahn
Well, that's a common thing I get, like, even in on the industry side of our business. When I start working with new groups, they say, well, I don't make widgets. I'm not making cars. I'm not Toyota. That is the common. Well, this isn't this isn't for me. But there is case studies. There's examples out there of all of these other industries that said, wait a minute.

00:10:51:05 - 00:10:53:26
Lucas Hahn
If it works there, it's going gonna work here.

00:10:53:29 - 00:10:54:08
Andy RIchardson
Yeah.

00:10:54:15 - 00:11:09:09
Lucas Hahn
And so you can see lots of case studies on where it's been adopted, who's using it. There is a lean construction Institute now that you can pay a lot of money in and be part of, a lot of the engineering firms who work with those construction contractors are starting to go, oh, maybe we should be doing that as well.

00:11:09:11 - 00:11:24:06
Lucas Hahn
So it is it is newer to the space. There isn't, you know, a ton of engineering firms out there that are going to come up and say, yeah, we do that, you know, or we do the formal part of it. You know, most of them will say we do pieces of it. So I'll say it is, it is.

00:11:24:06 - 00:11:51:19
Lucas Hahn
You're on the front end of the curve. If you're if you're embracing this philosophy right now, but it's, it's had a majorly positive impact on health care, some other retail spaces that use it. There's lots of examples out there. Sports, lots of sports programs use it with great success. So there's all these non-manufacturing applications that are popping up, and I think the next one, one of the next ones, you're going to hear a lot about is like design and engineering.

00:11:51:21 - 00:12:06:14
Lucas Hahn
Because like I said, when I was learning it, I was able to go back and say, that's why, you know, we did that. We didn't call it that, but we did that. We were really successful because we we did those things. And wow, we could have been more successful had we known this next piece or this next part.

00:12:06:17 - 00:12:10:24
Lucas Hahn
Right. So retrospective, I was like, wow, I wish I would have known this 20 years ago.

00:12:10:25 - 00:12:15:15
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. And I started reading your book. I'm about halfway through. God.

00:12:15:17 - 00:12:15:28
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:12:15:28 - 00:12:31:16
Andy RIchardson
But you had a section called link. I think it's something like, lean before I knew what lean was. Correct. So. Yeah. Maybe. What, what's an example or two of that that you did from, you know, either engineering or even personal life? Yeah. I think,

00:12:31:19 - 00:12:47:23
Lucas Hahn
Well, I'll get the personal one. I already kind of alluded to. It was the newspaper route, right? You got paid by the paper, not the hour. So there's a lean tool called spaghetti diagram. And so what you do is you just draw movement, you just literally just draw how people move. And every place there's an intersection is potential waste.

00:12:47:25 - 00:13:02:24
Lucas Hahn
Because I've now touched that place twice. Right. And so it was thinking about tracking motion and how do I do this and do that. And you know, on a newspaper route, like, if I got to walk through this spot four times that, I've probably wasted some time. So I literally had maps drawn where I was doing that.

00:13:02:24 - 00:13:23:26
Lucas Hahn
And I was constantly I would draw a new path and I would time it and I would come back and say that that passes isn't faster, go back to the old one, and I would try a new one. Oh, this is the fastest path, try a new one. And honestly, the fastest that I ever got it to was, was like 80% faster than when I first started.

00:13:23:29 - 00:13:43:19
Lucas Hahn
And it wasn't so much. A little bit of it was the path, but it more of it was the time. Like, if I go at 5 a.m., I don't, I don't waste, I can cross the street differently because there's no traffic. Right. So things like that. But then in the engineering space, you know, some of the key tenants and principles are around, you know, putting the right metrics in front of people, visually managing stuff.

00:13:43:26 - 00:14:02:25
Lucas Hahn
We did a lot of that. I mean, it's very some of it people would consider very radical on some of the transparency we had on financials and how we were sharing that with the teams. But we really figured out how to share that. And again, I hadn't learned lean yet. It was just like, hey, that works like people are doing better, so let's do more of that.

00:14:02:25 - 00:14:21:06
Lucas Hahn
And so we started doing it. So we were sharing that in a way that was inspiring people to do things differently. And then really understanding process. When we were starting to get into a price crunch with our field survey groups, it was it was, okay, we need to be able to get this work done 20% faster or we don't make any money.

00:14:21:09 - 00:14:43:23
Lucas Hahn
So we started looking at things like technology. That was kind of the easy win. But with technology comes cost. So that that's a tough one. We got to the point where teams that were doing projects that were similar would sit down and map out where they park their truck, what the first guy does when they get to the site, what the second guy does when they get to the site, and those are all basically principles that we were using and didn't even really know what they were called.

00:14:43:23 - 00:14:53:00
Lucas Hahn
If we didn't know that, that's a thing we didn't know. That's how other people work. And it made us incredibly efficient when we could get so much work done. Really, really fast.

00:14:53:02 - 00:15:10:21
Andy RIchardson
Right? Okay. So in terms of somebody who want, like, okay, you've piqued my interest, let's say. Yeah. Now let's back up a bit though, and just say, okay, what is what is exactly lean? I mean, how would you define it.

00:15:10:23 - 00:15:35:04
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. So I define it. It's it's so it's a business mentality of reducing or eliminating waste to respecting people and continuously improving. And I use all of those words very intentionally. Okay. I didn't just throw that one out there. This is something that I've thought about. I talk to a lot of people about it. I've made little revisions over the years, but all of those pieces are components of it.

00:15:35:08 - 00:15:50:10
Lucas Hahn
Okay, I'm trying to figure out what the waste is and I'm trying to reduce and eliminate it. But but I'm doing it while I respect people that I'm continuously doing it because I'm constantly looking for that next thing, I'm taking small bites. I'm not boiling the ocean.[2]

00:15:50:10 - 00:15:55:06
Andy RIchardson
What are some of the core pillars, or principles of lean?

00:15:55:08 - 00:16:13:16
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. So, so when I look at it and and that probably the only one that has this view, but you have a lot of tools. So there are some defined tools that are out there. A five is a system where you're visualizing and organizing things. There's different structure problem solving models. There's process diagrams. There's all these tools.

00:16:13:16 - 00:16:31:09
Lucas Hahn
And, and a lot of them work really well in certain situations. But the one thing that I've learned over the years, and it's a guarantee, is if your culture is not conducive to using that tool, the tool will not work no matter how great the tool is. So the, the, phrase I hear a lot of people say is, you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast culture.

00:16:31:09 - 00:17:00:18
Lucas Hahn
Also eat your tools for breakfast, like if if the culture is not conducive. So I think when you talk about lean, you know, it has to start with culture. And so pillars of lean it's respect everyone like that's one you'll hear from anybody who's studied this, anybody who's interested in it, anybody who learns about it, respect everyone. And then words like empowerment, psychological safety is kind of the buzz term, but that's more of that whole like fear, like don't, don't, don't have people afraid to raise their hand and say, we can be better.

00:17:00:18 - 00:17:21:25
Lucas Hahn
You have to create that environment where people want to raise their hand, and be better. Another key piece then that kind of ties culture and tools together would be flow. If you want things to flow, not just your business processes, the tasks you complete to make money. But I want my annual performance reviews to flow. I want my weekly updates, so I want my career development to flow.

00:17:21:27 - 00:17:26:19
Lucas Hahn
You want all those things to flow with people, you know, to a common goal.

00:17:26:21 - 00:17:28:26
Andy RIchardson
Okay, so that's.

00:17:28:28 - 00:17:30:00
Lucas Hahn
That's some of the key things.

00:17:30:01 - 00:17:56:03
Andy RIchardson
Some of the keys, I mean, and, and we, we didn't really get in. So you, you spent some time with, with my team today and we didn't get into the culture as much as we did hit on it, but it wasn't an emphasis today. It's definitely in your book. But I want to a couple of things we did talk about today were that that I took away for our team and some of the things we want to do.

00:17:56:05 - 00:18:11:20
Andy RIchardson
Number one, because I have like, we did a fun little exercise at the very end today where we wrote down a two, two and we get all up in a ball and throw it over the wall. Yeah. And then we train in it. So, but the point of that was that we would hold each other accountable.

00:18:11:20 - 00:18:35:14
Andy RIchardson
So that was a fun exercise. But my, one of my to do's was to, get a I. Yeah. So that was a big takeaway today. And the other thing that we went over that was a big takeaway was our process. And so I see these things that mean all this stuff intertwines. Sure. Which is interesting. I mean, it's not like a it's not like a clear path.

00:18:35:14 - 00:18:57:02
Andy RIchardson
It feels like a spaghetti. Yeah. A bowl of spaghetti. And I have a lot to unravel. But the, you know, thinking back to your newspaper route and and like the KBE KPI, because, because what I'm getting at is metrics and measurement is a big part, big part of it lean. Right. So when you were, I guess, what, 15 or.

00:18:57:06 - 00:18:58:06
Lucas Hahn
My paper, I was nine.

00:18:58:06 - 00:19:02:18
Andy RIchardson
You were nine years old. Yeah. So when you were nine years old, you were looking at that stopwatch, had to stop.

00:19:02:18 - 00:19:05:22
Lucas Hahn
Yeah, well, I was a clock in the garage. Yeah, because that's why I would write it down.

00:19:05:24 - 00:19:08:26
Andy RIchardson
You were like, okay, that was a metric, though. Yeah.

00:19:08:28 - 00:19:17:16
Lucas Hahn
Like I said, metrics my whole life I wiffle ball metrics. I probably still have them in a book somewhere in a closet, because I don't throw anything away. Right. Yeah. Metrics are a very key part of it.

00:19:17:19 - 00:19:29:20
Andy RIchardson
So that would be a KPI though, right? Yes. We we talked about today, KPIs, CBI's and also we went over with process. But can you define what a KPI and a KBI is.

00:19:29:20 - 00:19:48:08
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. So the the Pi is a performance indicator. That's your result. That's what I got at the end. So the result paper route, that's the result. The B is the behavior. So it's interesting like you can say we didn't spend a ton of time on culture and we didn't like intentionally call it culture. But the definition of culture is the sum of your behaviors, right?

00:19:48:09 - 00:20:08:02
Lucas Hahn
We spent all day talking about behaviors, whether you guys noticed there or not. That's fair. We were documenting behaviors for all kinds of things. We documented behaviors for good leadership. We documented behaviors for good teamwork. We documented behaviors for good communication. And then when we started talking about KPIs, obviously we were talking about behaviors that produced the right results.

00:20:08:05 - 00:20:31:11
Lucas Hahn
In the process, the steps you take is how you behave. Yeah. Okay. And so if you have a process or a way you behave that's not getting you the result. You want the KPI, you have to think about what behaviors can I change to change my result. Because you behave exactly the same. Your result is exactly the same.

00:20:31:14 - 00:20:50:12
Lucas Hahn
And so you think about what are those key, key ways I behave that I could be measuring and that does stumble a lot of people because sometimes that's like, how do I measure that behavior? And there's no one right answer. So the guidelines I give is keep it simple, keep it intuitive, keep it available where people can see it.

00:20:50:14 - 00:20:59:09
Lucas Hahn
And, I guess we'll see how good I taught today. You remember the most important thing about a KBE? The fourth thing,

00:20:59:11 - 00:21:00:29
Andy RIchardson
The most important thing.

00:21:01:01 - 00:21:04:21
Lucas Hahn
If the if the metric or visual management doesn't do this, you shouldn't have it.

00:21:04:23 - 00:21:17:14
Andy RIchardson
If it doesn't, I guess, institute change, kind of. Okay. Yeah. So drive. Drive. You're that. You're. Yes. There you go. You know, it it should. It should institute or implement the change you're looking for, right?

00:21:17:18 - 00:21:28:08
Lucas Hahn
Inspire the right behavior. Yeah. And you know the desired behavior. So when I put this number up, I expect people to behave this way. Then they should be behaving that way. And if they're not, you might have the wrong metric.

00:21:28:11 - 00:21:52:20
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. And so I'm going to give a shout out to one of my, I guess, people on LinkedIn that I've connected with Renz Hays, and he's with, another podcast is on development podcast and also, you know, structural engineering. But he was talking about the KPI in the engineering world of utilization.

00:21:52:25 - 00:21:54:02
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:21:54:05 - 00:22:13:02
Andy RIchardson
And so I bring this in because it's again, a AEC podcast. So the A and E of it. So a lot of architectural firms, a lot of engineering firms, they're focused in on this utilization number. Yeah. And and I am in that I mean that's something that we have targeted as well. And we have as a target number as well.

00:22:13:02 - 00:22:29:09
Andy RIchardson
And so I'm I'm looking at that and thinking is this the best number because is this the best KPI. Because it's going to be driving behaviors maybe that aren't what we what we want. So do you have any thoughts on that.

00:22:29:11 - 00:22:49:04
Lucas Hahn
Yeah I mean I think you're spot on and and I mean I'll speak to that. I mean, normally I would say, well, ask the people who you expect to behave that way and see what happens. But this is a number I'm very familiar with because for years that was a number I evaluated. And that number coupled with earned value, like how much work is getting done, could inspire the right behavior.

00:22:49:04 - 00:23:08:28
Lucas Hahn
So so you you're talking about do you want progress or do you want activity? Well, I really want both. Like I want all of my activity to count towards the progress of the project. So utilization number in itself, probably isn't going to work as a KPI, because the, the inspired behavior could be to just make sure I put hours on my timesheet.

00:23:09:00 - 00:23:24:23
Lucas Hahn
It doesn't really inspire you to move the project forward. So if I'm able to tie that to progress on the project or project on the work or a profit margin or other numbers, that than it really could help. Yeah. Get you where you need to be.

00:23:24:25 - 00:23:46:07
Andy RIchardson
Okay. And we spent a lot of time discussing that. There was a number of ways to do that. I probably won't get into that too much right now, but, there are other ways to do it. We discussed, you know, our our secret to success at 26 is plans out. And how can we tie that? You mentioned the earned value ratio.

00:23:46:07 - 00:24:00:25
Andy RIchardson
So, obviously being more open about the financial was discussed. So those were a couple numbers that we, we hit on. Was there anything you wanted to elaborate on that?

00:24:00:28 - 00:24:16:21
Lucas Hahn
I think what I'll elaborate there is and I'll turn because we have it on the whiteboard. Right. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff up there. Right. And it might all work or none of it might work. Yeah. And you don't know until you try it. So, you know, get it out there, try it.

00:24:16:23 - 00:24:35:17
Lucas Hahn
And then kind of, as we talked about today, if I'm putting this information in front of people because I'm intending for it to help them make our business more successful, then make sure it's doing that. And if you're not sure, you have to ask them. Yeah. Okay. So when you saw this earn value number that's tied to our plans out that correlates actually profit and plans out.

00:24:35:19 - 00:24:51:09
Lucas Hahn
And it was below it was red. What did it make you feel? How did it what did it make you do? Made me want to just put out a job resume and go work somewhere else. Okay, well, maybe we're showing you the wrong metric. That maybe we need to do something a little different. Right. And so that's that's the kind of, again, most important part.

00:24:51:10 - 00:25:08:16
Lucas Hahn
What behavior does it drive? And sometimes you have to ask to find out. A lot of times you'll find out in your next KPI cycle. Right. Like next time that KPI number comes in you might find out you missed it. So probably driving the wrong behavior. But it'd be nice to find that out before. Before you miss it.

00:25:08:18 - 00:25:09:17
Andy RIchardson
Right? Right now.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:20:17
Lucas Hahn
Hey, we got this new thing it's intended to do. This is it. Doing that? Not doing that. Okay. What can we be doing to inspire that behavior? Then? What's the data? You need to behave this way.

00:25:20:20 - 00:25:35:04
Andy RIchardson
Right? Okay. So let's switch gears a little bit. And to we talked about A and E but the C the construction. Is this something that could be helping the contractors in the construction side.

00:25:35:07 - 00:25:52:16
Lucas Hahn
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when you think about so I guess I didn't mention this in key tenants of lean, but I, I should have is a whole system thinking piece and, understanding what are all the pieces of the system. And when I think about a project, it doesn't matter what kind of project it is.

00:25:52:16 - 00:26:09:05
Lucas Hahn
It could be, you know, an engineering, architecture project, like you're working or a massive energy project, like. Like we're working. A lot of times construction is the bulk of the spend, if you think about the whole system. Right? Yeah. So you think about I've bought a piece of ground and putting up a building. I've hired a structural engineer of hired civil engineer.

00:26:09:05 - 00:26:32:06
Lucas Hahn
I've done all this. When you look at total span, construction is going to be a huge piece of it, right? Yeah. So don't you want the biggest piece of your overall project to be operating very efficiently and as a successful part of the system? Absolutely. And that's what that's what lean is trying to do, right? Yeah. And like I kind of mentioned earlier, there's a lean Construction Institute now has a lot of consultants coming into the construction space.

00:26:32:09 - 00:26:53:18
Lucas Hahn
Because it is really it is really helping them. They are ripe with opportunity. I know like in the energy sector, I do work on projects where we bring our construction contractor in. They're not in-house people, but we're working on improvements. We need them there, because there's things we're doing that that are setting them up for failure.

00:26:53:20 - 00:27:09:11
Lucas Hahn
So on the construction side, there's just a ton of opportunity there to think about flow and about process and about metrics. I can give you dozens of examples on safety. Right. Like where where good visual management are good metrics drive the right behavior.

00:27:09:13 - 00:27:12:10
Andy RIchardson
Okay. Yeah. Can you give us an example of that. Yeah. Okay. One.

00:27:12:13 - 00:27:31:09
Lucas Hahn
So I'm not saying don't ever train people, but we like to when there's a safety incident, retrain people. Right. Like, oh, we're going to train you how to how to do that again. We're going to train you how to do that again four times in, we're training you how to do that again. Right. And I sit there and say, well, it didn't work the first time.

00:27:31:09 - 00:27:51:04
Lucas Hahn
Right. And so, you know, like an example I can give is something like, like, like, like lifting, like construction. You you're lifting heavy equipment. There's a specific way to do it. Everybody's trained in it. Everybody certified in it. Some people get complacent. Some people are in a hurry. Some people don't have the right strap. So they just do it different and they get an accident.

00:27:51:07 - 00:28:10:25
Lucas Hahn
And then you say, okay, we're going to retrain that person. And then when the next person gets in the machine, they say, hey, remember, you got to do your lifting correctly. Yeah, I got you. Right. Well, if you put a photograph of the excavator that lifted something up wrong and it went through the cab of the truck on the controls of that vehicle, that person will remember to lift properly, right.

00:28:10:28 - 00:28:27:29
Lucas Hahn
It's that little bit of visual management that says do it wrong. And this is what happens. Right. That's a pretty powerful one that you'll see. That's an example that's been given a couple of different places. Just how do I communicate it differently to get them to understand it's important. I'm going to show you the picture.

00:28:28:00 - 00:28:31:29
Lucas Hahn
What happens when it when you do it wrong. Yeah. I'm going to put it right here where you're working.

00:28:32:01 - 00:28:35:18
Andy RIchardson
That that probably will change their behavior. Yeah.

00:28:35:21 - 00:28:36:06
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:28:36:09 - 00:29:01:26
Andy RIchardson
Because and we were talking about a book, Steve Chandler, he's not in the lean industry, but he's in the, I guess, business and leadership industry. But yeah, he talks about this idea of want to versus how to. So that's kind of a behavioral aspect of things. Meaning you have to be motivated in order to do something.

00:29:02:01 - 00:29:24:06
Andy RIchardson
Right. I mean, so once once people are motivated to do something, they'll figure out the how to, but you have to get the want to, you know, and so when I see a picture of a of a hole in somebody's arm because they didn't lift it right, or whatever, or, you know, if you happen to know somebody who went through a situation like that, you're you're going to have a want to share.

00:29:24:06 - 00:29:26:03
Andy RIchardson
I don't want to be in that situation.

00:29:26:03 - 00:29:27:09
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:29:27:11 - 00:29:52:21
Andy RIchardson
But yeah, that's a, that's a, a big deal. But just a fraction of the total picture in terms reconstruction that could be impacted by this. So. Yeah. Yeah. So it seems like lean could really impact the AEC industry as a whole. And we're definitely looking into it for our company because and working through it currently for our company because I see the value in it.

00:29:52:23 - 00:30:07:16
Andy RIchardson
And we went through a lot of examples today. Right. Of, I mean, we spent some a good amount of time just going through like examples of lean from all the way back. Toyota was one of the very early ones, right? Not the first.

00:30:07:16 - 00:30:09:10
Lucas Hahn
The first. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:09:16 - 00:30:10:00
Andy RIchardson
They kind of.

00:30:10:06 - 00:30:27:03
Lucas Hahn
Well, a lot of people say Henry Ford was okay. Like he really thought about production and things like that. I'm like a Lincoln nerd. I read a lot of Lincoln books. I would say Abraham Lincoln was. Yeah. I mean, that man thought about process. That man thought about empowering people. Voice of the customer. He used to open the doors of the white House and say, come tell me what you need, okay?

00:30:27:04 - 00:30:34:17
Lucas Hahn
You know, those are all lean things, right? Right. So, yeah, it's kind of hard to say it, but in most circles somebody will say that's it's Toyota.

00:30:34:20 - 00:30:35:01
Andy RIchardson
Okay.[3]

00:30:35:02 - 00:30:37:01
Lucas Hahn
You know, they did it on a scale, you know.

00:30:37:01 - 00:31:08:24
Andy RIchardson
And what was there was a few things that I thought was interesting. So number one, the just the story of Toyota's interesting and the, the 1970s, we had a gas crisis. You know, Jimmy Carter was president and. Oh, yeah, today's, you know, he obviously, just recently died. So, at 100 years old. Right. And but the thing is, we had a gas crisis, and these companies couldn't get their gas mileage down.

00:31:08:24 - 00:31:24:09
Andy RIchardson
The Toyota could. So what was it about? I mean, I gave you a curveball. So here's kind of a softball. Yeah. What was it about Toyota that was different than the US companies? That was what allowed them to get the gas prices down.

00:31:24:09 - 00:31:42:22
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. I'm gonna pick one word because I think this is the most important word culture. Okay. Their business culture, everybody there was a line to go get this thing and they were empowered to go get this thing. And they had to find processes and they had metrics that were the right metrics to say, what are our big problems.

00:31:42:25 - 00:31:59:25
Lucas Hahn
Right. Where are we wasting money? We have to do more with less. How are we going to do that? And their culture was conducive to people saying, hey, if we move this boat over here, it works better. As opposed to who's the clown who designed the boat over there and just pushing it down the line. Yeah, they don't do that stuff.

00:31:59:27 - 00:32:00:27
Andy RIchardson
Right? Right. Okay.

00:32:01:00 - 00:32:02:21
Lucas Hahn
Because their culture.

00:32:02:24 - 00:32:24:24
Andy RIchardson
I mean, you think about is, is that a cultural thing? I mean, Japan versus us because, and in particular also like the AEC industry. Yeah. You think about, you know, contractors, I mean, yeah, that the idea of humility doesn't go hand. It doesn't end with the construction industry.

00:32:24:25 - 00:32:24:29
Lucas Hahn
No.

00:32:24:29 - 00:32:26:06
Andy RIchardson
You're correct. Am I right about that?

00:32:26:06 - 00:32:27:20
Lucas Hahn
Absolutely right. Yeah.

00:32:27:26 - 00:32:41:14
Andy RIchardson
So how does one I mean, I don't know that that may be a whole nother podcast. Yeah. Right. Yeah. What do you how do you bring that in to the construction industry. That sort of humility aspect.

00:32:41:14 - 00:32:56:21
Lucas Hahn
So I you know, and if I had the absolute answer for this, I'd be using it because I encounter this all day, every day in my day job. I encounter this, right. It is that, you know, I'm the oilfield guy. I got the boots. I've been doing it 30 years. I know what I'm doing, you know, and that's tough.

00:32:56:21 - 00:33:22:07
Lucas Hahn
And that's okay. There's value in that. Like, there is a lot of value in that mentality. But there's also a lot of, potential concerns with that mentality. Like, you're not innovating, you're not evolving in certain things. And so where I see it start to work is when it's small doses. So just come in and and help them figure out how to improve something that might not even matter.

00:33:22:10 - 00:33:37:02
Lucas Hahn
There's a company out there called Fat Cap, and they talk about when he starts, he starts in the bathroom. I was going to clean the bathroom. I'm going to show you all how lean can work in a bathroom. And that's how he starts. Wow. And so it's that start really, really small. Show them that it's helping them.

00:33:37:05 - 00:33:55:22
Lucas Hahn
You know, I think a lot of people, especially in construction industry, it's like, oh yeah, I'll get the boss richer, a big deal. Why do I got to work harder to make him richer? Or, you know, I've always done it this way. I know everybody's left me alone. So this, you know, status quo type stuff. And again, you know, I get why people can be that way and why the industry can be that way.

00:33:55:22 - 00:34:15:15
Lucas Hahn
But show them a little bit different and show them how it impacts them. Like the adopting this doesn't help the company. It helps you first. Oh and by the way a better you helps the company at the end of the day. And macro culture is there. Like yes Japanese companies can adopt it like this. European companies adopt it very quickly.

00:34:15:17 - 00:34:19:07
Lucas Hahn
American companies really really struggle to adopt it.

00:34:19:11 - 00:34:20:21
Andy RIchardson
Right, right. I've.

00:34:20:21 - 00:34:41:29
Lucas Hahn
Been fortunate to develop a pretty good network, of other lean people from other companies who have worldwide footprint companies that operate in South America and Europe. And they tell me, like, yeah, when I go to Ireland to do this, it's so easy. Like the people are just on board like they want it. You know, I go to new Jersey and it's like, get out.

00:34:42:02 - 00:35:03:05
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. So, you know, it is it is an issue, which I've been doing a lot of work on last couple years in the Pacific Northwest, which I think there's something there. There's a macro culture there that seems to be conducive to this. Yeah. A lot of the examples that people will give on what good looks like for lean or continuous improvement are coming from the Pacific Northwest.

00:35:03:05 - 00:35:19:15
Lucas Hahn
And some of the people I'm working with up there, I'm like, wow, this is going really easy. So I do think there are some components there that need to break down. And the construction industry is one of them that I think is going to have it's going to be harder. And I think that's why it has to be slower and it has to be incremental.

00:35:19:23 - 00:35:24:13
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. Okay. Well that's you know, I was like we just hit the tip of the iceberg on that topic.

00:35:24:13 - 00:35:25:01
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:35:25:04 - 00:35:56:00
Andy RIchardson
But I want to get into just a couple more questions. But one of them is, you know, really what this podcast is all about, the world around you. What drives you in in terms of working in this? Not necessarily always in the AC industry, although that's a big part of what you do. But and just in lean in general, like what drives you to do that and help people with that aspect of things.

00:35:56:04 - 00:36:22:14
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. And, I guess the short answer is the number one reason that I pivoted to this full time zero to do with financial. I actually took a pretty big demotion at my company, not a I mean, they were nice to keep my salary, but because my job title demoted my bonus change dramatically. Okay. You know, and I knew that, but I did it because I knew it helped people.

00:36:22:16 - 00:36:45:16
Lucas Hahn
Like, I knew the project manager who struggled every day when he came here and came in, went home and, you know, made it miserable for his wife and his kids to to be around him because of how bad his day at work was. Right. And I started seeing some of that change, and I started having people call me and say, yeah, hey, I'm I, you know, I know we saved a bunch of money for the company, but this is what it's like at home now, and I love it.

00:36:45:18 - 00:36:49:09
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. You know, I this is what I'm doing with my kids archery team or whatever it's going to be.

00:36:49:15 - 00:36:54:04
Andy RIchardson
Yeah, yeah. You gave an example earlier about, I guess.

00:36:54:06 - 00:37:11:19
Lucas Hahn
Soccer games. I go to soccer games and I manage the same amount of work. We get it done faster, we get it done cheaper. I never went to soccer games because I didn't have time. Now I go, yeah, you know, that's a huge metric.[4] But I like the word enhance. Right. To me, improvement equals enhance something that's enhances improved.

00:37:11:22 - 00:37:33:17
Lucas Hahn
So it's very easy. For me to say, oh, yeah, for enhancing this and it's an enhancement podcast. What was the same thing? Improvement is enhancement. Yeah. But also I don't remember which episode. Maybe you say this in every, every episode, but it's the why enhance the lives around us, right. And that's really what I'm leveraging it for is to enhance people's lives.

00:37:33:17 - 00:37:50:28
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. Not not the not the bottom line of a company. I mean, that's great. It's a nice side effect. That's not what that's not what gets me going. Like when I hear, eighth grade teacher talk to me about a kid's behavior changing in class because he's using lean principles at basketball, like, that's not just changing his life.

00:37:50:28 - 00:38:10:17
Lucas Hahn
That's changing lives of people around them as parents. I mean, it's going everywhere. So it's enhancing the people, around me. It's improving the people around me. Yeah, I do so much of it for myself, like improving me. But it's really in the vein of, like, I want to do it and I actually call it I'm being a light, so I'm being something that somebody can look at.

00:38:10:20 - 00:38:24:15
Lucas Hahn
So when I do these things, I want to do them in a way that people see them and go, I want to do some of that too, right? Yeah. When I really first started in trying to get my wife to do some of this stuff, that's what I did. I tried to get her to do it, and that's the wrong way to do it.

00:38:24:15 - 00:38:43:24
Lucas Hahn
Okay, okay. Like I saw her get frustrated with things. I saw her struggle with things. I'm like, oh, Leon fixes that. Here, do this not received well. So I changed my approach. I started kind of doing it in a way where I was just doing it for the things I wanted to do it for, and then I turned around one day and I'm like, well, what do you got going on over there?

00:38:43:26 - 00:39:01:03
Lucas Hahn
And she's doing it. I have like this tool I use for my task management. Okay. The line tool, it's color coded. It does all this stuff. I get an incredible amount of stuff done with this for years. I said, you should do that. Go do that. I'll print you one. Nope. Nope. No. And then I just started doing it all the time where she saw it.

00:39:01:05 - 00:39:09:19
Lucas Hahn
And now the weeks that she doesn't print on, she tells me about it. I can't believe I didn't do that this week. So that's enhancing lives around me.

00:39:09:22 - 00:39:24:07
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. And and that's interesting too, because you're using this, I mean, you don't just use it at work, you use it at home, and with your parenting, with your hand. As far as your your marriage.

00:39:24:14 - 00:39:25:07
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:39:25:10 - 00:39:26:28
Andy RIchardson
Is there anywhere you can't use leave?

00:39:27:00 - 00:39:38:14
Lucas Hahn
I haven't found a place yet. Okay. I think somewhere at the end of my book, I actually talk about that. Like, if you if you have a place where this doesn't help, call me because I don't buy it. Yeah. I haven't found a place yet, you know.

00:39:38:20 - 00:39:40:05
Andy RIchardson
Yeah.

00:39:40:08 - 00:39:54:28
Lucas Hahn
I've worked at our church on it. You know, and I did get, you know, some push back there. People are like us. Has no place at church. This is, you know, okay. But then you get other people, like, this is the best thing that has ever happened. This is the, you know, this is so great. I'm glad we're doing this.

00:39:55:00 - 00:40:05:06
Lucas Hahn
Yeah, yeah. Because part of lean is seeing value. Right. So if I'm in a church environment, you know, isn't isn't a value of church spreading the word of God for other people.

00:40:05:09 - 00:40:05:26
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. How can.

00:40:05:26 - 00:40:11:27
Lucas Hahn
You. Okay. So there aren't there tools here that help us do that better. Yeah sure. Yeah. For sure.

00:40:11:29 - 00:40:15:04
Andy RIchardson
That's awesome. And I mean, God is a God of organization.

00:40:15:04 - 00:40:16:08
Lucas Hahn
So yeah.

00:40:16:08 - 00:40:20:21
Andy RIchardson
I mean he gave us these tools. Ultimately we just have to learn how to use them.

00:40:20:23 - 00:40:23:04
Lucas Hahn
Right? You know, some of us have any humility to use it.

00:40:23:10 - 00:40:45:13
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. Which I mean, that's you know, Christlike in itself, right? I mean, that, that concept. So, so, let's say that somebody is really I mean, if they've listened this long, they're probably interested in the topic, or maybe they just are listening along. But how do I get going on this? I mean, you've got a book. There's other books.

00:40:45:15 - 00:40:51:24
Andy RIchardson
There was one guy you mentioned that I think he gives like some like, small tweaks you can do. I forget the.

00:40:51:24 - 00:40:54:13
Lucas Hahn
Name Paul Akers? Paul. That's fast cap. Yeah.

00:40:54:15 - 00:40:55:18
Andy RIchardson
Oh, that was the fast cap guy.

00:40:55:18 - 00:41:01:08
Lucas Hahn
Yeah, he's the CEO of Fast Cap. Okay, I don't know. They might have a million videos now. It's hard to keep track. You do them every day.

00:41:01:15 - 00:41:02:13
Andy RIchardson
Okay. I didn't know that.

00:41:02:15 - 00:41:18:19
Lucas Hahn
Short takes up the phone. Just says here, watch this. One of the videos I talk about with him, like, if you went home and explained to somebody in your house what you're like. So I describe the video, like, if you went home and said, this was my day at work, everybody's like, here, let me get you a drink.

00:41:18:21 - 00:41:38:28
Lucas Hahn
So, yeah, we were told we need to do something eight times as fast as is being done today. So my boss and this other guy watched me do it over and over again and kept timing me like, that's awful. Like, here, let me get you that right. But you watch the video. It was the best experience of that woman's like, it was great.

00:41:38:28 - 00:41:54:10
Lucas Hahn
She loved it because he wasn't over there like faster, faster, faster. He would just report the data and she would go, what if I did this? Well, let's try it. What if I did this? Well, let's try it. But what if we did this? Let's try it. So when you explain it, it's like, that's terrible. Like, I don't want that to be my day.

00:41:54:10 - 00:42:13:20
Lucas Hahn
But then you watch it and you're like, that's awesome. Like my Boston say, you got to get that done eight times faster. He came over there and gave me everything I needed to get it eight times faster. Yeah. The excitement in their voice when they watched that timer and they went, oh, we got it. Yeah. They end up getting it like, you know, 12 times faster or whatever you need it to far exceeding the expectation.

00:42:13:27 - 00:42:36:09
Andy RIchardson
Well, part of it is realizing there you could with some effort with some of these principles you can the sky's the limit. It is, I mean, which is amazing. I mean, one of the examples you talked about today was, was actually Toyota, but more of a modern example, which is some of these companies, it takes like two weeks to change the dye.

00:42:36:10 - 00:42:38:25
Lucas Hahn
Maybe three different cars. Yeah. Frame to go machines.

00:42:38:25 - 00:42:46:12
Andy RIchardson
And so you go from like a Ford F-150 to a Ford Bronco. Yeah. You know whatever. So but Toyota does it in like 45 minutes.

00:42:46:15 - 00:42:47:20
Lucas Hahn
Yeah that's right. Lower now.

00:42:47:20 - 00:43:11:22
Andy RIchardson
But yeah, just just an example of yeah the sky's the limit. You can go from two weeks to one hour, you know. So what could be possible in a architecture in engineering and construction. What could be possible. So, I think, it just gets my mind going. I'm excited about it. What we're going to do. So thanks for just sharing.

00:43:11:25 - 00:43:20:01
Andy RIchardson
Everything you've shared today. So you've given us one place, Paul Acres, with his YouTube. Is there any other where else they should check out?

00:43:20:04 - 00:43:34:23
Lucas Hahn
Yeah. I mean, I have a YouTube that has some more, like, home applicable stuff. It's not all business. So that's Lean Unleashed. Okay. So there's I do a lot of short ones. I have some longer ones on there. My old a lot of my older stuff is longer because I wanted to just give everybody this.

00:43:34:23 - 00:43:55:03
Lucas Hahn
Like I couldn't wait to get it out. Right. Yeah. And all of the feedback I got was, I don't need to hear you talk about this for an hour, like you're burying me, right? Right. So I was doing like 3 or 4 minute little, little nuggets. Just little tricks. Little tips. You can do, so that certainly out there for somebody to kind of pick through, there's a whole series of those, there's some longer things on there.

00:43:55:05 - 00:44:13:00
Lucas Hahn
But I mean, just just research it and, if you want to look at it, you know, don't look at the people who who say they're doing it good, you know, look at the people that we know are doing it good. Right? Right. So there's a company called Barry Miller. Bob Chapman is the CEO there.

00:44:13:03 - 00:44:29:15
Lucas Hahn
They know they're doing good. They've got all the data that was just show you how good it is. Toyota is still very good at it. Pixar films is is good at it. I think you heard me earlier mention the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team, which I don't. I knew nothing about rugby till I started learning lean.

00:44:29:21 - 00:44:39:14
Lucas Hahn
Yeah, I went wait, why are they better at sports than everybody ever. Yeah. And they are substantially and they use it and they talk about it pretty plainly that they use it.

00:44:39:16 - 00:44:44:14
Andy RIchardson
So what they do crazy. I mean, the percentage of winning was what, 70s?

00:44:44:14 - 00:44:45:19
Lucas Hahn
It's a high 70s.

00:44:45:19 - 00:44:50:13
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. So and then green Bay Packers and the Cowboys early 50s.

00:44:50:13 - 00:44:50:22
Lucas Hahn
Yeah.

00:44:50:22 - 00:45:03:21
Andy RIchardson
50s. So and that's the greatest of all time right. So yeah. What could be possible. Yeah I think is what I'm what I'm gathering from this. Sure. So anything else you want to share with the audience today?

00:45:03:24 - 00:45:22:14
Lucas Hahn
I think, kind of word of caution. It's, it's it's very easy to get overwhelmed. Right. Like, I saw faces today were like, oh, that's so much, and and I was very bad at this when I first started helping others with it. I would come in with everything and people would just be like, who's like, turn the bulldozer off.

00:45:22:14 - 00:45:43:01
Lucas Hahn
You just ran us over, buddy. Like, yeah. So I would say, you know, pick the small things, you know, pick those little things, pick something fun, okay? Like when you learn how to apply this and fix something fun that you enjoy doing, then you do the next one, then you do the next one. And you'd be amazed at how quickly that can grow and how how fast you can get from.

00:45:43:01 - 00:45:56:03
Lucas Hahn
I just learned how to make my eggs three seconds faster, too. You know, I'm I'm working on a $40 million project, that involves 100 people at the company that's going to make their life better. And, oh, our financials are going to get 20% better.

00:45:56:06 - 00:46:05:16
Andy RIchardson
Yeah. Okay. So I think that's a great starting point to start small and then apply it. Yeah. To to bigger things.

00:46:05:19 - 00:46:10:14
Lucas Hahn
It's not one size fits all. Absolutely not. There's no one right way to do it.

00:46:10:16 - 00:46:11:28
Andy RIchardson
Awesome. Well thanks, Lucas.

00:46:11:28 - 00:46:19:26
Lucas Hahn
Thank you. I really appreciate getting to talk about it for sure. Yeah, I'm excited to see where 2096 goes with it. Yeah. Really excited.

00:46:19:26 - 00:46:24:25
Andy RIchardson
Yeah, definitely. I think we have a lot of things we can do with it. Yeah. All right. We'll take care.

00:46:24:27 - 00:46:25:12
Lucas Hahn
All right. Thanks.

00:46:25:13 - 00:46:26:14
Andy RIchardson
Any show? Yeah.

00:46:26:14 - 00:46:35:26
Madeline Richardson
Hey everybody, thanks for listening to today's episode of enhance and please me like a subscribe or follow and we'll see you next time.