0:01 - Madeline
So on today's episode, we had Ryan Sullivan, who is a former engineer and now owns a company that is in financial advising. And it's called Off the Beaten Path, which I really thought that name was interesting because a point he hit on was the fact that we're not traditional just for the sake of tradition, and the fact that every person's different in their own case.

0:29 - Andy
Ryan, I mean, he had a lot of good ideas. So Ryan, he's a financial advisor and a business coach, personal coach. But he also has a, sorry, it hits close to home for me because he's a structural, he's an engineer background. And so, engineers like engineers, right? And so I think it makes for a great business coach, financial advisor, because he can relate to the engineer mentality, he can relate to the architect mentality. You're going to learn more about that with Ryan, and he has a lot of good ideas in this episode, so I think it's going to help you get ahead, whether if you're running a business, or maybe you're thinking about running a business, or just from a personal finances standpoint, we get into some of those tips too. So, a lot of great practical tips in today's episode. So, a little different, not really talking about design per se, though a little bit of design from his background. So those are some of the things. Were going to hit on today. Did you figure out what your point was?

1:30 - Madeline
It was the other point where you said, why did you start your own business? And he said, because I'm a control freak, and he has to be in charge of what he's doing.

1:40 - Andy
I thought that was funny because he has to be into every little detail like that. Yeah, and I think you want somebody like that to help you find those problems. And financially, yeah. Yeah, so I thought that was a good point.

1:53 - Madeline
Also, another point was how he didn't just help in the financial aspect, but how he also would help in the business aspect of things, too, where I know that there are some financial coaches who would just help with the finance area and maybe hit on the point of like, well, how much money is your business making, etc., and then he would help with the business aspect of it, too. Coming from that, starting his own business and coming from the engineering path.

2:17 - Andy
Yeah, so yeah, I think a lot of different aspects, whether you're personal or business, I think you're benefit from today's episode. My name is Andy Richardson. I'm a structural engineer. I've been doing this 26 years. This is the producer, Madeline Richardson, and this is the Enhanced Podcast, where we interview professionals in the AEC industry and find out what they do and why they do it. Let's jump to the intro.

2:46 - Madeline
Welcome to Enhance, an AEC podcast where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why. Hey Ryan, welcome to the Enhance podcast.

2:57 - Ryan
Thanks Andy, glad to be here. So it's good to have you on today and I'd like to start out with just some questions, like curveball questions I call them, or opener questions.

3:11 - Andy
And the first one really is, it's about you as a as a person and you know your your business though really likes to emphasize adventure right and and combining aligning adventure with financial so what type of what type of adventures have you been doing lately yeah well right now it's been winter so I've been doing a lot of skiing I'm a big backcountry skier so I like to hike up mountains in the middle of nowhere and ski down and then also snowmobiling and so I live in kind of a unique place and I can snowmobile and ski right out my back door so that's been it's been pretty great this winter.

3:51 - Ryan
Awesome yeah so I saw some some of those videos that you posted about snowmobiling and it looks like this is the first year you really did that or you you got your own snowmobile is that the case?

4:04 - Andy
Yeah I'd never really snowmobiled before and so I it seemed like a good thing to do up here since we moved in last winter and Yeah, I got a pair of snowmobiles one for my wife and I and so it's been a lot of fun riding those things Around but it's definitely a lot harder than I thought Especially when you're you're going off the trails and you're on deep, you know powder snow it's pretty easy to get stuck and so I had a lot of experiences of Shoveling snow and and trying to pick that thing up and it's been challenging Definitely.

4:33 - Ryan
Is there still snow on the ground where you're at?

4:37 - Andy
Yeah, this week it's getting pretty warm. It's starting to melt off, but I mean, there's still snow on the ground.

4:44 - Ryan
Yeah, and where did you say you were again?

4:47 - Andy
I'm in Montana, living in the mountains of Montana.

4:50 - Ryan
Okay, awesome. Now, is that where you're from originally, or did you just move there recently?

4:55 - Andy
No, I'm originally from Portland, Oregon, and I came out to Montana, Bozeman originally, Went there, studied engineering, and then moved to another town in Montana and moved back to Bozeman. So I've been in Montana now for 16 years, I think.

5:12 - Ryan
So it's been a bit. Yeah, okay. And you were a practicing engineer for a period of time, right? For a local engineering company in Montana?

5:22 - Andy
Correct. Yeah, that was how I started my career. So started off in the HVAC plumbing world, designing systems for commercial buildings across the U.S., and it was a large regional architecture and engineering firm. And so I worked there for five years, got licensed there, and then I went off and started an engineering department at a mechanical plumbing contractor.

5:45 - Ryan
Okay, so a contractor. So was that like a design-build relationship?

5:49 - Andy
Yeah, so they were just getting into it. And so, you know, a little bit smaller contractor, but they bad designs, bad engineering. And so they were having to do a lot of extra effort. And they brought me in to basically start that design engineering side. And so we started doing a lot of design build. That company got bought by a larger mechanical plumbing contractor about a year and a half after I'd been there, and still doing design build. That was the goal. But we kind of started going the other direction. And so just bigger company, they were more entrenched in how they were doing things. And there was just a lot of infighting. And so we had the goal of doing design build. And I was the guy representing design. And I spent most of my time just like fighting internally with people and trying to get them to to do it a certain way. So I got a little burnt out of that.

6:46 - Ryan
Right, right. So what is that? What led you to start your own company in the financial industry or?

6:52 - Andy
Yeah, that was definitely a big part of it. You know, I learned early on in my career that, you know, having ownership, ownership of a business was really the best way to build wealth. And, you know, you have a little more control of your income and then you're, you know, you're building something that ultimately has value and could eventually be sold. And so I was looking for a way to do that. And I'd been interested in, you know, entrepreneurship and started my own business. And I, and actually before I went to that first contract, contractor, I considered leaving the industry and doing something different. And I looked at buying a business and starting a business and being a business consultant and quite a few different things. But none of that really quite worked out. And so this opportunity was unique where I got to basically start my own firm inside of an existing company. And I had very little oversight, pretty much full control over everything that I was doing. But I didn't have to worry about making payroll. You know, I didn't have stresses that come along with you know being the business owner but I also didn't have the ownership stake and so I thought that that was gonna maybe change after a handful of years or when the sole owner was considering exiting or transitioning or something and instead he sold it to a different company it became clear fairly quickly that they weren't really interested in you know sharing ownership or anything like that and so especially with me and my team being this kind of little separate group from the rest of the company, I was like, I'm putting in a lot of effort here and I don't really feel like it's worth it long-term for what it's gonna take to be able to get it to the next level. And I also kind of randomly met this guy at the store one time who was a financial advisor and used to be an engineer. And so we really hit it off and to manage my own investments. And when I sat down with him, he was like, I've never seen anybody with this level of sophistication in their portfolio. He was like, you should probably just keep doing what you're doing. And so we kind of hit it off and we started, you know, grabbing a drink or meeting up for lunch or different things like every month, every other month for a couple of years. And so I learned from him a bit about kind of the business, you know, what it looked like, I saw the lifestyle that he had. You know in these different things and that originally I was I was not interested but over time it became kind of more and more intriguing and as I got kind of burnt out on the engineering side and was kind of looking for different options I was spending all my free time researching and doing stuff with investments doing stuff with personal finance starting to talk to other people around me and I realized that they weren't spending which was news to me. And so I kind of developed this expertise. And so a lot of these factors all came together. And that was kind of the catalyst for, Hey, I'm going to launch this business and I'm going to just go for it.

9:55 - Ryan
Yeah. Okay. I mean, and it's just really wild that that meeting at the gas station, I think you said gas station, right?

10:02 - Ryan
Oh, it was at a sporting goods store.

10:04 - Andy
We're looking at AMO. Yeah.

10:05 - Ryan
Like a retail store. So you're probably buying some like snowmobile boots or something.

10:10 - Andy
Buying bullets.

10:11 - Ryan
Bullets. Yeah, I've seen those videos too where you're shooting things.

10:16 - Andy
Yeah.

10:16 - Ryan
But yeah, imagine if you wouldn't have not met him at the retail store buying bullets one day. Yeah, it's crazy, you know, circumstance.

10:27 - Andy
I mean, I don't, being a financial advisor never crossed my mind, you know, and so it just kind of happened that Yeah, that's pretty wild.

10:40 - Ryan
But I want to go back a minute to the entrepreneurship. I was going to kind of joke a little bit about like, don't tell that to my team, my employees, because I don't want them to know that that's the best path to wealth. But a little bit joking, because I believe in it. I mean, you believe in it, in entrepreneurship. So why is that? Is entrepreneurship a great way to build financial wealth for really anybody?

11:10 - Ryan
Yeah, I mean, I will say that, you know, entrepreneurship is not for everybody.

11:14 - Andy
And I mean, the statistics are pretty crazy. I mean, I'm sure you've probably seen them about the percentage of businesses that fail, you know, in the first year or after the first five years. I don't remember the exact number, but it's very high. You know, it's definitely over 50 percent. I think after 10 years, like 90 percent of businesses fail. Um, and so it's, it's very challenging. And so it's definitely not the path for everybody, but you know, if you're driven, you have kind of the right skillset and motivation, then it can certainly be successful. And I think the biggest reason is that, you know, you, you get paid or compensated based off the value that you provide. And, you know, when you, when you're in a job and you're working for somebody, you know, they, they kind of have your pay is generally related to what other people make or there's only so much they can do. And unless you're in a real commission-based system or kind of sales or performance-based system, which is not very common in engineering, you kind of get limited. And so having ownership gives you the possibility of increasing your income as well as doing things more on your own terms. And as I've gotten older, I've realized that I guess I'm kind of a control freak. And so I like having control of things. I like being able to do things my way. And historically, that's worked out pretty well for me. And so I recognized early on that if I wanted to have, you know, significant wealth or significant freedom or significant control, it was most likely going to be through some level of ownership in a business.

12:53 - Ryan
Right, right. So so that's a big read. It's not just financial. I'm hearing more than financial. Like, that's a part of it, right? But, I mean, you could argue the numbers are more beneficial to stay in a high-powered job, especially, I mean, I've looked at some of the numbers lately. Even as a business owner, and I would say we're doing pretty well, albeit recently, I put a post on LinkedIn about some of the struggles we're having, but generally speaking, you know, like 2024 was ever as I mentioned in that post. But my point is even as a business owner I've seen some you know recruiters and things reaching out to me and it's like wow it makes you actually wonder should I should I do this.

13:43 - Andy
So my point though is finances is one aspect of it but lifestyle choice is another and you you have a business called Off The Beaten Path so your lifestyle is really a part of what it is what you do right I mean um so can you talk about that a little bit like what what does off the beaten path mean to you yeah yeah I mean that's a great point it's not all about the financials and you're you're right I mean especially if you work you know for bigger companies or certain industries I mean you can be paid very well and have very good benefits um but for me it's always been about freedom and that was something that I realized you know I don't know a handful of years ago is that I'm very motivated by, by freedom. And that looks like a lot of different things. It's freedom of choice, freedom of time, freedom of money. Uh, I just have never, I don't want to be limited by my financials. I don't want to be limited, you know, by my job or have time constraints around what I can do. And so I've been in pursuit of how can I do what I want when I want. And kind of my driving thing has always been, I want to go skiing when it's You know, that's when some days it's good, some days it's not. And I want to be able to just go when it makes sense and not feel like I have to go to work or I have to do something. And I don't, you know, I don't spend a lot of money. You know, I'm much more of a saver than a spender, but I want to be able to spend money when it makes sense or when I want to. And so it's always been about just options and having that freedom of choice and not feeling constrained in any certain way. And so that's been kind of my driving force. And then as far as the name of the firm, Off The Beaten Path Financial, I was doing this exercise as I was deciding to launch and trying to figure out what I was going to call it. And it was a really great exercise that kind of started with, you know, describe your kind of your ideal day and what are you doing and, you know, who are the people you're with and what does that look And then it kind of got more specific towards the business. And then it was like, what's the name of the firm? And it just, it kind of popped into my head. And so it was the first thing I thought of, you know, off the beaten path, financial. And for me, I'm definitely, I don't do kind of normal things. I live in a cabin in the woods. You can't drive to my property in the winter. You know, you need a sewing machine. And my investment approach is a little bit different. Historically have always kind of taken a little bit different approach, a little bit different path. I don't follow the crowd. And so that was kind of the thought process or the genesis behind the name. And it's how I approach working with my clients, whether it's dealing with their investments, whether it's helping them with their overall finances or their business. It's really breaking things down to first principles and not getting hung up on kind of traditional methods or traditional processes of like, let's really figure out what do we need to do here and what makes sense and that's kind of my engineering brain of breaking down problems into you know smaller simpler chunks and figuring out what we have to work with and then reassembling in a way that's going to get us the best results.

16:58 - Ryan
Yeah I mean I've spoken like a true engineer right there so but at the same time I mean you're there's a creativity aspect of it right and I mean I think sometimes engineers are given this stereotype of you know you can't be creative You can't be off the beaten path, but you've chosen a path that really is off the beaten path in terms of your lifestyle. I suppose not everybody wants to live in Montana in the snow or be a financial planner, but you're helping architects, engineers in their business, also on the personal side and the business side, right? Can you explain what it is you're doing? You actually do with your company? Yeah. Yeah.

17:42 - Andy
So again, you know, not taking the traditional approach, what I wanted to do was kind of marry the personal financial side of things, as well as the kind of business consulting, business planning side of things. And I recognized a need, especially in, you know, firm owners, or just, you know, engineers, architects that wanted to go off on their own, or kind of started a side business. And that was where I started, you know, I started my firm on the while I was still running the department. And so I did that for a couple of years and it was pretty hard. And making the transition out of that was even harder. And so, you know, I've gone through that experience. And so being able to work with other people that, you know, want to do similar things. And so my kind of niche, you know, or kind of target is marrying the whole financial world, both between personal and business. And for a lot of business owners, they don't really have anybody like that. You have an accountant that does your taxes and you ask questions and you usually don't get much out of You maybe have a bookkeeper, maybe you have someone that manages your investments, but there's kind of a lack of someone that's really looking at the entire picture. And especially for a lot of small business owners, their personal finances, their business finances are very much intertwined. And so if you work with a traditional, even financial planner, they usually aren't gonna get deep into your business. You know, they'll kind of say, okay, we can plan on this sort of income and maybe help you a little bit there, maybe talk some about taxes, but they're not going to actually help your business be more successful, grow, be more profitable, those types of things. And so what I kind of realized was that's kind of what these business owners need is they want to help, you know, growing their business. They want to increase their income. And then, you know, what do we do with that? And so being able to offer kind of that whole package of services and come in there and just be their money guy, you know, and be a resource that can help coordinate with their accountant or bookkeeper or different people that they don't necessarily have time for, or they don't wanna, you know, they don't wanna take the time, or they just aren't that familiar with these financial concepts and it's overwhelming. So to be able to be a resource for them and understand their world, how they think and be able to communicate more effectively.

20:00 - Ryan
Right, right. And do you find that, I mean, and you work with architects and engineers as well, right? Correct. And both, do you work with just business owners or do you work with non-business owners, I guess?

20:16 - Andy
Yeah, I work with non-business owners as well. And so there's a decent group of my clients that aren't business owners.

20:25 - Ryan
Yeah, so it's a combination. Yeah. So which one? We got a little question for you. Which one's better with money, the architects or the engineers?

20:35 - Andy
That's a good question. Well, I would say engineers, but I mean, architects are terrible with money, and they pretty much will all admit that. I think some engineers are very good with money and others are not as much. But I think on aggregate, engineers are typically better at money than architects.

20:56 - Ryan
Right, right. But business owners in general, have you found, like, are they generally good with money? I mean, the people you're working with probably by nature are coming to you because they're having issues, I suppose, right? Yeah. Typically, what are you finding there? Yeah, and that's true.

21:14 - Andy
I mean, a lot of the people I talk with, they're reaching out because they are struggling with the financial or kind of business side of the business. And I mean, it's pretty common. I mean, a lot of people, especially in the engineering and architecture space, they start a firm because they're an engineer, they're a technician, you know, they know how to do the work, and maybe they want a little more control, a little more flexibility in how they're working. And so usually that's where they start. And certain people kind of embrace the business side, and they spend a lot of time, you know, kind of learning and developing Other people are more focused on the work itself. And so those are the ones that typically struggle a little bit with implementing systems or managing the financials, those types of things. So it's pretty common just in business in general, where you've got someone that is really good at their craft, but they don't really know how to build a business. And if I can help them do that, and if they're good at their craft, the combination of those things is going to lead to a lot of success.

22:21 - Ryan
Right, right. So an engineer by nature or architect by nature is very good at their craft. They're good at designing buildings or HVAC systems, etc. But not always at business, right? Or finance. So this is a whole side of the coin that they haven't really been educated on, typically speaking, unless they have. You have some people that have a passion for that. A penchant for that side of things. Or maybe they had some people in their background that were business owners and things. But a lot of times they just don't have that experience because they went to school to learn how to design a building, whether it's engineering side or architecture side. I see myself 15, 16 years ago What what would you tell a new person that starts their business? Like what's what can they do to set themselves up for success? As a new business owner and and make sure they are following these business principles and these financial parent principles to help be successful What are some tips that you could get them started on?

23:37 - Andy
Yeah Yeah, I think you know when you're first starting off There's a lot, you know, there's so many things that you have to do and it pretty overwhelming. And so I think a lot of business owners start trying to, you know, outsource or hire or get someone else to do those things as soon as they can. And sometimes that's smart if you have, you know, the cash flow and the income to support that. But sometimes I think people do it too early or they don't have a good foundation. And so what happens is I think people start to build a business that gets bigger and more complex and more things going on before they really have a a strong foundation, and then it just makes it that much more difficult. And so what I would say is that you really want to dial in what you do, who you do it for, how you do it, make sure you're profitable, you're making good money, you have good systems in place, you have a really strong foundation, that then when you add additional people, components, other things to it, it scales effectively. And so I think people just have a tendency to go a little bit too quick adding people or different things and then it gets much more difficult to kind of unwind or back that off.

24:49 - Ryan
Right but on the other hand I mean they're working 80 hours a week right now and they need help so how do you how do you get around that?

24:59 - Andy
So I had a conversation yeah so I had a conversation with an architect yesterday and she lives in a small town and she was saying there's not many architects there and so she has a wait She has all this demand for her services. And I was like, so you're just rolling in the dough, right? And she was like, no, I'm not making much money at all. And I was like, well, then you have a very serious, you have a problem because if you have all this demand, which is one of the hardest things to do. And so if you can actually generate, you know, leads and potential projects and have that demand for your services, then you should be able to make fairly good money from that. Before you necessarily need to bring additional people on. So if you're working 80 hours a week and you're not really making any money, then again, there's a problem there. So if you're working 80 hours a week and you're making a bunch of money, then yes, absolutely, you should bring people on to support and help that. And I think that's the difference is that people are busy and so they feel that they're at capacity and they can't do any more and they don't know what else to do. But if they're not profitable, if they're not producing a really good income for themselves, even at kind of that solo stage, then, you know, it's going to be when you hire somebody on, it doesn't necessarily solve that problem. You know what I mean?

26:16 - Ryan
Right. I mean, I have a sense of what you're saying, but what do you feel is the biggest trap that's causing that situation where you have this waitlist, this demand? I mean, what's causing that? Are they not charging enough? Are they just doing busy work, like of work or what is going on here? I mean, I'm interested in what your findings are.

26:38 - Andy
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it, I think, is fees. You know, architects especially are really under charge. You know, engineers do as well. And it's tough because, you know, it's sort of competitive. You have, you know, other firms and it's hard to differentiate your services. And so I think people, especially in the beginning, they underpriced themselves. And so now they're overworked, or scope creep is a really big one. And so people end up doing a lot of extra work without being compensated for it. And so it's about having a better system and a better way of approaching your fees, your pricing, and how you're selling your services. And so again, demand is one of the hardest things to get. And so if you have demand, then you should be able to that and you should be able to be you know fairly profitable from that standpoint.

27:33 - Ryan
Right so is it just I mean in a situation like that where we just want to raise our fees is that a simple solution or is it beyond that?

27:43 - Andy
So I mean that's a good place to start but I think it has more to do with understanding the value that you're providing and you know in the engineering world there's a lot of firms that all kind of do the same thing. And I ran into this problem when we were trying to know when I was trying to sell engineering services, and no one really listened to me because I didn't understand why they should care. And so it has to do more about understanding the value that you provide, or, or developing the value that you provide, and then being able to communicate that effectively. And so with any business, the goal is to operate as the best in the world at something, right? And so in kind of a commoditized space, you have to differentiate yourself in some way and understand what are your strengths? What's unique about you? Why should people work with you? And what's the value that you're providing? And so there's more to do with positioning and that positioning and the value that you're providing can lead to higher fees. Just increasing your fees doesn't necessarily get you there because people are just going to hire somebody else.

28:50 - Ryan
Right, right. OK. So we went kind of back to our original framework of we went to school and could become an architect or engineer and now we're in business. And not only are we in business, but we're actually salesmen is what I'm hearing. Right. So which is probably not what a lot of people want to hear. Right. Like you don't want to frame yourself as a salesperson. I mean, and I think we in the professional world, a lot of people call it business. Development. But at the end of the day I don't call that because I feel it's basically the same thing. Although I did recently hear there's a nuance between sales and business development which I found interesting. But yeah, so the point being we're in this sales role which one of the key things you have to do with a sales role is you have to, like you said, you have to distinguish the value that you provide. If you drive down the highway and you've got these fast food chains on the left and the right, they're basically still selling french fries and hamburgers or maybe chicken sandwiches. And so that's like, oh well that's a chicken sandwich so maybe I'll go buy that. But what's the difference between this french fry and that french fry? I mean maybe they put a little different seasoning on it or they cut it a different way, but it's still a french fry. But but for some reason you turned into one versus the other so why why is that is it just straight-up cost or what so I think there's an interesting parallel there but um so yeah it's definitely some traps you can get into is from a business owner standpoint and it sounds like that's that's one of the ways out is the sales is there any other tips for how to get out of this kind of cycle as a business owner Yeah, I mean, sales is kind of the end all, be all, right?

30:46 - Andy
If you don't have a pipeline, if you don't have work coming in, then nothing else really matters. And so you're right, that was something that I didn't really realize. I went to school to be an engineer and just assumed I was going to sit at a desk all day and not talk to anybody and do my stuff. And then as a manager, I spent literally all day, every day just talking to people. That was all I did. And it was like, this is exhausting. And so, you know, then you got to wear the sales hat, you got to wear all these different hats. And so I think, I mean, that's obviously a big part of it, of kind of working yourself out of that. The other is, you know, getting really clear on your numbers. And a lot of people don't track things. Tracking is hugely valuable to be able to glean insights out of that data and information. And so understanding, you know, what's working, what's not, what's too much, what's too little, you know, all the different areas, whether it's the project management or kind of more at the firm level. But being able to get in there and kind of analyze and digest what's happening, in order to do that, you have to have the data to the inputs, right? And so some firms, they don't really track that or they don't pay very close attention to it. And then what happens is they get behind. And with anything, if you start to get behind, it's a much harder uphill battle just to get back to even or kind of back to where you were. Before you can really even start making forward progress. And so, I mean, again, a lot of people that talk to me are having some challenges or want help, and a lot of them have gotten themselves kind of in a bind. And so it takes some work and some hard decisions sometimes to kind of work out of that. But once we have a better framework, we've got better metrics, we've got better systems, we've got better data and analysis, now it's much easier to look into the future plan ahead and navigate these things a little bit easier.

32:40 - Andy
Okay.

32:41 - Ryan
To go along with that, are there any key numbers that you recommend looking at from a high level and then maybe down at the project level as well?

32:53 - Andy
Yeah.

32:54 - Andy
I think one of the simplest ways to check out your firm is to look at net revenue per full-time equivalent employee. A good target you know, around $150,000. And basically what that means is, you know, for every person, whether they're billable or not, you know, overhead or not, you should be generating at least $150,000 in revenue kind of per head. And if you're not doing that, it becomes very difficult to be, you know, profitable. So that's a pretty quick and easy way to kind of assess just in general where you're at. Beyond that, you know, looking at the project level, it's just, you know, keeping tabs on on what were your fees, how much time did you allocate for this, and how much did you actually spend? And so what I developed on the engineering side was I kind of reworked our whole project cycle process and got really strategic about how and when we reviewed things and got really granular about what we did when because it allowed us to work so much more efficiently. Ran into, which a lot of engineers run into is, especially if you're the senior engineer, you're the one reviewing things. You wait till the end, you review stuff and it's all wrong. And the team has to go back and rework the whole thing. And so it costs you so much time and so much money to do that. And it's just brutal for everybody. And then you're pumped up against a deadline and everyone's working late and overtime, try to scramble to get it done. And it's no fun. And so what we did was. We got really clear on what were the key things that we had to do at different stages of the project. And then we put in like key review points as well. And so me as the primary reviewer, I would have to basically sign off on a couple little things throughout the process so that when we got to my big review, it wasn't changing the very core of the design. And so we had already gotten through some of the big questions, the big hurdles, and now it was more kind of cleanup and smaller things. And so that did a lot to help streamline our entire process. And that helps you be more profitable on projects because you're not putting in this massive effort at the end and you blow the budget.

35:19 - Ryan
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a really key point as far as how to improve your efficiency. I mean, that's one impediment that I'm familiar with very much so in our company. We've worked on it, but we have work to do. But what are some tools to implement that procedure, that process?

35:39 - Andy
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I really used any particular tools. I mean, I'm a fan of OneNote. And so we had built a, we call it the Tome of Awesomeness. And so this one guy, like my first hire, he had this document that he called Rob's Notes of Awesomeness. And it was like a little Word doc that he made that was just notes to himself about how to do things because he kept forgetting and making mistakes. And so he was he was just making little notes for himself. And at a certain point was like, hey, you should share this with the rest of the team. You know, I think everyone could benefit from seeing this. And so we kind of evolved that. We call it the Tome of And then I know we built it out in one note and so we had all these Processes and checklists and all these things so I'm a big fan of checklists That's a really easy way to keep on tabs of quality control and so what I started having people do like I built the checklist and then Refined it you know job to job, but I made everyone go through the same checklist so by the time it got hopefully everything was really picked up. And so we just kind of put these gates in place and we had checklists and systems and SOPs to help make sure that everyone was doing it consistently. And then it made it way easier for me to check things because I knew exactly where to look and what the typical mistakes were. And so my ability to review got very, very good. And so I could review a large set of drawings very quickly because I knew where the common challenges were and everyone was doing it in a consistent way.

37:29 - Andy
And so that consistency was made it easier to identify mistakes or problems.

37:35 - Ryan
Yeah. So there was an expectation or a standard, if you will.

37:40 - Andy
Correct.

37:41 - Ryan
Everybody knew what the goal was, what the standard was. At least Conceptually now every job is different. That is another challenge, right? So I mean checklists can cover so much but but it can't cover everything at least in this realm because every every building we design Almost every building anyway is a unique building, right? Like we've never built this building before which is actually really cool about what we do, but it's also a challenge what we do but I'll be it if we didn't have that challenge we wouldn't have a job, right? But yeah it makes it interesting I suppose. So but what you're talking about really is just project management is what I'm hearing. I mean it's if your projects are running efficiently and well and so you know I think part of what I want to say is I mean this episode so far is really it could be for anybody who's a project manager not just business owners, right? But if you're running a project business owner, as a project manager, these are tips that can help you be successful with your project, right? I mean, that's what I'm hearing. Totally.

38:49 - Andy
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, how firms make money is they do projects. Products have to be managed well. I mean, we can talk a lot about the big picture and some of these other things, but it's the boots on the ground. It's the day-to-day. That's what really makes it happen.

39:06 - Andy
Right.

39:06 - Ryan
Yeah, I mean, if every project is so if everybody's billable to you know pretty close to you know their hours like we don't we got to be careful about focusing too much on the quote-unquote utilization but if everybody's been you know spending pretty good amount of hours on jobs and the jobs are within budget I mean how could you lose theoretically It's interesting.

39:35 - Andy
I do a couple of exercises with people and, um, you know, we kind of line out. Exactly what you said of, okay, here's kind of the team. Here's their utilization. Here's kind of their standard rates or what we expect to get, you know, based on our fees. And it's like, okay, you should be doing, you know, X amount in revenue. And it's like, did you do that? And it's like, no, it's like, okay, well then, you know, something's wrong. Like we have, here's the ideal state. This is what we said should be happening. If that's not happening, then clearly something's going wrong in there. And so we can start to diagnose and identify where some of those challenges are. Because you're right. And then if you do hit that and you're still not making money, then your rates aren't right. There's not enough margin in your fees and what you're charging because you're not making money. And if you can't charge more, well, then your overhead's too high, right? Too much for these things. So it's that's why I like it. It's a problem to solve. It's a it's a puzzle, you know, of kind of diagnosing these different things and figuring out all the inputs and the outputs. And how do we kind of rearrange them and identify what do we actually need to do to solve this? What do we need to do to be more successful moving forward?

40:49 - Ryan
Right. Yeah. I mean, if you if you somebody's got to pay for that fee, It's either the business has to pay for it, the employee, or the client. In this world, unless you're a contract employee and you're an hourly employee, I think that's illegal to not pay them for their hours. So they're not going to buy it. In that scenario, it's either the owner of the business and the business, or the client, right? And that's where you mentioned earlier which is scope creep. It could be scope creep, right, in that scenario. Like maybe we're over budget or out of hours because the project, you know, they keep changing things perhaps, you know, or maybe it's a fixed job. So I don't know, do you run into a lot of fixed jobs situations or hourly? With your clients?

41:51 - Andy
Well, a lot of my clients, they're doing hourly and then I help switch them over to fixed fee. Hourly, a lot of firms start off doing hourly because it's simple and it's easy and you think you're going to make money. But the reality is that a lot of those firms, they end up really struggling because they have this kind of natural ceiling. And so when you're charging hourly, you're not incentivized to be more efficient. Nobody wants to pay really high hourly rates and it's really easy to compare rates to different firms. And so you're really, you know, you're presenting your services on more of a cost-based kind of framework. And so fixed fee is, you know, somewhat dangerous from the standpoint of, if you're not careful, you can lose a lot of money. And so there's a little bit more, you know, risk involved, but it also means that you can command higher fees because if you do a good job, one, you can come and under budget to you can charge based more on your value and not some relatively arbitrary hourly rate. And so there's a lot of advantages to go in that direction. So it's still pretty common out there, I think, for a lot of firms to be either or, but the firms that are very successful and do well are typically doing fixed fees. Yeah, and I like fixed fee.

43:08 - Ryan
I mean, you mentioned natural ceiling. That's what I've found to be the truth is, you know, let's say it's a You know, you say, hey, it's going to be an hourly job. Well, they're going to want to know what the budget is. I mean, you can't just do a total hourly. So you're like, well, it's going to be probably $10,000 range. Well, guess what they heard? $10,000. So you hit $10,000 and you're done, right? So I mean, yeah, you might better get $11,000 or $12,000. And if there's some clear scope things, you can get the extra couple thousand. But are you going to really be able to get 20,000 or 30,000, that's going to be tough. Whereas if it was a fixed job, you could still have that conversation anyway, right? Right. So I might as well, if I'm taking, the way I look at it is if I'm taking the risk of $10,000, I'm going to go ahead and just get $10,000. Like that's the way I look at it.

44:03 - Andy
So yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. Cause the thing that cracks me up is people that do, you know, hourly not to exceed is literally the worst situation you can put yourself in because best case you break even and worst case you lose, you know, like it's not really setting you up to be very successful. And a lot of times what happens is you go over that not to exceed. You can't really ask for more at that point in time. And now your, your rates are just dropping and dropping as you burn hours. And so, like you said, there's a risk that you take as the firm by doing something fixed fee, you should be compensated for risk. That's why. And so the owner has the guarantee, basically, of this fixed number. So there's value there. That's advantageous to them. And so by you taking on that risk, you can charge more. And you can also work efficiently to come under that, which is kind of a double whammy.

45:02 - Ryan
Right. Right. That makes sense. And so I want to ask, though, on the fixed fee job, do you have any advice on, because we gave you the three scenarios, right? The company, the client, the end user, and then the employee. But how do you keep the employee within the fixed fee? I mean, is there any incentivization there? I mean, obviously, yeah, what is your advice there in that scenario?

45:30 - Andy
I mean, that's where the project management comes in. I mean, I went through this, pretty much my whole team I hired out of school or from a different industry. And so they had zero experience in what we were doing. And I was the only licensed engineer. I was the only one reviewing anything. And it got really difficult to keep on top of everything, not to mention I was doing business development and financials and everything. So the project management piece is key. And in the beginning, Like you have to be on top of them. You have to be on top of them for everything, or not necessarily you, but whoever is the project manager, because they have no idea what they're doing or if it's the right path. And it's too easy to go down the wrong path and burn all this time. And all of a sudden it's like, Oh my gosh, like what have we done? You know? And so you have to be either present or have systems or some type of agreement about how and when you're going to check in. And so to keep tabs on that to make sure it's moving in the right direction. And as you get busier as the product manager or the owner or whatever, and you're pulled in all these different directions, it becomes harder and harder to do that. And so again, you have to go back to either have to empower somebody on your team, you have to put in clear systems, you have to have a clear relationship or agreement about how and when they're supposed to check in or how far to take things. And that's obviously going to be very, you know, kind of case by case. But the reality is you can't just let people run because if they run the wrong way, then you're toast and there's nothing you can really do about it. And if that continues to happen, that's when you burn all this time and money on fixed fee projects.

47:16 - Ryan
Yeah. Okay. So those are some good, some good points as far as project management and just tips on fixed fee jobs. Um, it sounds like a lot of the success of a business is just surrounding these projects and project management. Like that's a big part of it. Is there anything else that we can do to help people be better project managers as a business or just in general?

47:42 - Andy
I mean, I think training, you know, I know in my career path, I guess, is maybe a little atypical. And just, you know, my life, I suppose, I just kind of jumped into things without really any training. And so maybe I'm unique in that way. But I don't feel like very many firms provide a whole lot of training or support. And so you're just kind of expected to figure it out. And some people, you know, they can do that. But a lot of people, not so much. And that was what I learned in leading a team was that I had a couple people on my team that I didn't have to tell much. They would figure it out. They'd solve the problem. They would find the answer, you know, they were very good at that And that's what I was good at too. There were other people if you didn't hand it to them They're just gonna do God knows what you know, and it's not that they were bad It just is a different kind of mentality and a different skill set And so I think that at least how in the places that I worked there was no There was no training, there was no support, there was no help. And so I just had to figure it out and luckily I was good at that. But that's what I think firms can do is spend more time, spend more energy, create more systematized kind of career paths or training or these things and really focus on the development of the skills that you need them to have to be successful. And I didn't learn really much of anything in engineering school that was applicable to any of the work that I've ever done. I learned thermodynamics. I didn't take a single HVAC class. I didn't learn a single thing about plumbing. And so I just, I had to learn it from work. And so I think most people are in a similar situation. College doesn't really prepare you to do all these things. And as unfortunate as it is, the firm has to kind of take on that responsibility. So having some type of structured and strategic training development program is going to help be able to take the knowledge from the people that have it and give it to the ones that don't and create an environment where they're encouraged to explore these different things to help get them to a place where they understand how to manage projects and how to do those types of things.

50:04 - Ryan
Yeah.

50:04 - Ryan
Well, a lot of what I heard there, too, is you need a Ryan on your team. Right. And I say that a little bit tongue in cheek, but also So you want to hire a good engineer, a good architect. Or, by the way, we're AEC, Enhance AEC, so some of our advice is going to go to contractors today in construction. By the way, have you ever worked with any contractors in your consulting?

50:34 - Andy
Not on this side of the table yet.

50:38 - Ryan
Okay, but is that something in the future for you, possibly?

50:43 - Andy
I mean, I'm open to it. I mean, I worked for two different contractors, you know, I'm very familiar with that side of it. So I'm not opposed to it. It's just, I've mainly just worked with architects and engineers so far.

50:55 - Ryan
Yeah.

50:55 - Ryan
But I mean, a lot of these tips and advice would apply.

50:58 - Ryan
I mean, it's all very similar.

51:00 - Ryan
I mean, you're still project management. It's still projects. It's still business, right? And it's still money. And money's still good, no matter if you're in the A, E, or C category, right? Totally. So, I think we've really gotten into the project management pretty deep. So, we might have got off script a little bit with our questioning, but it was very intriguing. So, I just wanted to continue down that path. So, I appreciate you sticking with me on that. But I do want to get into a couple of the other things, namely some of the personal finance aspects. I think we kind of covered most of the project and not everything. Obviously, we could talk all day about it. But I do want to get into the personal finance a little bit. So, because you work with, you know, individuals, right? And so, like, for example, you might have a business owner like myself that also you focus on the business, but then also on the individual side. So, what are some tips? What are some things that you're finding people are getting? I guess, let's go with traps first. So, what are some traps people are getting into on a personal level? That we should avoid is the general question. Yeah.

52:11 - Andy
Well, I think one of the biggest challenges I see is that most people don't really have a clear financial system. And so their money just kind of happens. And so they get money, they spend money, and there's not a lot of intention around it. And so that's a big part of what I do for a lot of my clients is help provide more structure and help arrange and set up a system that's gonna help them be more intentional with their money. And so that's kind of the first place to start if you don't have that in place, because otherwise it's just an uphill battle. And so a lot of people, they run their finances out of a single account or two accounts or something very simplistic like that. And it becomes difficult because you don't really know what this money is for. This? Can I do that? Should I do this? Should I do that? And if we can get more structured with it, then it becomes much more easy to make those decisions. And so it's a great feeling when you want to do something and you look at your bank and you have money in account that's specifically for that, right? And so that's what I try to help people do is make sure that they are spreading their money around and that they are putting it to the right place in the right way for their goals. And that way, when they need the money, they have it, there's no question about it. And it just gives you a lot of peace of mind and overall confidence.

53:42 - Ryan
Yeah, I mean, it sounds a little bit like I did Dave Ramsey to Total Money Makeover. And he has what he calls the envelope system. Have you heard of that? Or are you familiar with that?

53:52 - Andy
Yeah, yeah, my wife, I guess I've never actually done anything with Dave Ramsey, but people talk about him all the time. But I know about the envelope system. And my wife did that for a little bit because she really struggled with spending and it's very effective. My system is similar, it's just kind of with bank accounts and more modern, I guess.

54:12 - Ryan
Right. Which, I mean, it's a simple concept, like you said. It's just, we did it for a while and you basically have a literal envelope that says gas or food. And once that money's gone, it's gone, right? So it sounds like the system you have I don't know if it's just a spreadsheet that says this is for food and this is for my 401k or if there's a like a bank account. So is it, is it, how do you do that?

54:41 - Andy
Yeah, it's more about accounts and I don't, I don't really like the word budget and no one really likes budgeting. And so I don't, I don't really talk about budgeting and my system, what I do is I, I use bigger categories. And so I break spending into basically two camps. You have fixed expenses. Which are your bills, that's mortgage or rent, utilities, internet, insurance, things like that that are consistent and steady month to month. And then there's everything else, which is where people struggle. And that's the variable spending. And so that's the gas, the groceries, the eating out, the shopping, all those things. And the challenge is that when people try to budget, you have your cash envelopes and you have a hundred bucks for gas and you run out, it's like, are you not gonna put gas in your car? What happens now? You know, you got to steal from your grocery budget to do that or something. And people are trying to keep track of it, you know, nowadays more digitally and like with software. And it's just, it's tough. It's tough to keep on top of it. It's kind of frustrating. And so what I do is just take all of that stuff and just put it in one bucket. And so you get an allowance basically for all of that miscellaneous variable spending. And so let's just say, you know, for your household, it's $5,000 month. And so you have a bank account and preferably a debit card that goes along with that. And that's kind of it. And so similarly, you know, when you're out, you're out. But it just it makes it a little easier to manage. You can automate it and you only have to keep track of that one thing. And so when we do that now, everything else in our whole financial system is consistent and predictable. And so we can set up automatic transfers for saving and investing. We can set it up for all of our different objectives, and the only thing that really fluctuates is this one account that we've kind of isolated. And so I feel like with a lot of the clients I've worked with, that's the best way to get a handle on that miscellaneous spending, because when it runs out, then what? And if you need to spend more, you can get it from somewhere else, but there's a level of friction and resistance that comes into play because you have to intentionally take money from somewhere else has a specific objective I'm gonna steal from our house down payment to go buy this new jacket it's like do you really want to make that trade if you do great but at least you have to kind of stop and think about it yeah okay so that's a good primer for some tips on you know how to how to manage your personal finances and then also anything on the long-term side that you find from a trap standpoint that people are getting into?

57:23 - Ryan
So long-term investing, are you finding people are investing for the future is what I'm getting at.

57:28 - Andy
Yeah, I mean, I see it on both sides. Some people that work with me have done a really good job of putting money away. A lot of engineers are pretty good at saving, but they're risk averse and they don't really have a good handle on investing. And so I talked to a lot of them that have just kind of sitting there because they're hesitant to invest in the market. They don't quite understand it. And so that's definitely one thing that's fairly common. And on the flip side, you've got people that struggle to save and invest and put money away. But I think across the board, investing is a deep rabbit hole. And there's so much opinion and advice and different things out there it's really hard to figure out what's the right thing for you. And especially engineers that have to analyze all the possibilities and double-check things, and they want to feel really confident about the decisions that they make, especially with something as big as their money, especially as it gets larger, they really struggle to make decisions, and they really struggle to know what they should do. And so ultimately, that's where somebody like me comes in that has the experience, that has a background, that has the time and the willingness to dive into that and figure out what makes the most sense for them.

59:00 - Ryan
Right, right. So it sounds a little bit like a good financial answer there, kind of a generic one. But I guess, sorry, I was transitioning to the next topic of... But also I was thinking about like my kids you know because I was just having a conversation with my son Jesse he's 19 and I was curious what would you say to him because I was just having a good conversation with him yesterday and I said just just get the Vanguard app and and start putting money into it 20 bucks a month 100 bucks a month you know he's he's college age career age I mean I guess My point was, like you're saying, engineers, these technical people, they want to make the perfect decision, but what I was trying to tell them is do something, right? So anybody that might be just starting out their career, I mean, what is one thing they could do? And I mean, maybe you can't tell them to use that particular app I mentioned, but can they just get started on something? I mean, like a hundred bucks a month or, you know, what can they do to get going?

1:00:14 - Andy
Yeah, well, I think that's great advice that you gave your son, and I would second that entirely. And so, I mean, it is about just getting started. And so, yes, you know, especially later on as you've accumulated more money, it can be kind of scary. But, you know, the reality is that you got to get started somewhere. And especially the power of compounding is so big that if you miss out on that for, you know, a handful of years or whatever, it is a big opportunity cost. And so that is kind of my typical advice to anyone just getting started or, I mean, really regardless of age, is just do something, you know, like don't second guess it, don't worry about it too much, especially if it's not huge amounts to get going, it doesn't matter. And there's, what I like to say is it's a lot easier to go from one to two than it is to go from zero to one. And what I mean by that is to get over that initial hurdle of, you know, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to do anything, like it takes a lot of effort. And so if you can put in the effort in the beginning to just kind of get started to get to one, to get to some type of system, some type of automatic contribution, some type of automatic transfer, at least that's going. And then down the road, when your income goes up, it's easy to increase that. When you become more knowledgeable, it's it's easy to change that. And so if you could just get over the hump and start doing something, that's going to set you up much more for success. And then you can always adjust down the road. And I think a lot of times people think these things are somewhat locked in stone or, you know, you can't change it, but you can change this stuff pretty much any second. You know, you can always come back and make adjustments. And so really it's just seconding what you said about getting started. Don't be so worried about making a mistake you'll figure it out. Right, right.

1:02:05 - Ryan
And I'm by the way, I don't know if that's like, I'm not trying to give a specific advice to anybody. As far as what app to use. So I mean, I'm just I'm telling my son that like that. So I don't know if that's going to get me into trouble or not, Ryan. But I think the primary point was their apps out there, you know, their stocks and There's different mutual funds and things that you can get a part of But if you get started in something, then you're making progress and you're learning. Even if it was a bad decision, at least you're going to learn. Which is a lot like business. You learn things and you get out there and you're like, man, I wish I'd have done it this way. But you can't learn until you try something new. So that's just a primer on the personal, a primer on the business side. We talked a lot about project management today. And let's see here. I really want to get into really one of the keys of the show. You know, what are driving factors are for you as a person and really your business in particular, working with AEC professionals? I mean, because you could work with You can work with anybody you can work with you know hairdressers or You know anything right, but you work with AEC professionals. I mean so indirectly you are in the AEC industry, right? And you have a you have a Engineering history right and you're still I don't know. I guess you still probably have your PE probably or yeah Yeah, so you're you're a PE and so yeah, I just want to know a little bit more about that Like, what is your driving factor? What's your why for why you do what you do? And what gives you your what's your passion in terms of what you do every day?

1:04:05 - Ryan
Yeah.

1:04:06 - Andy
Well, um, I mean, we kind of talked a bit before about, you know, that concept of freedom, and that's something that's always been a big driving force for me, personally, of, you know, how I can achieve that. And as I started to have, you know, more success, I recognize that I had kind of well I spent a lot of time working on it and you know a lot of engineers are more focused on their engineering architects are focused on their architecture and and that's fine you know but I recognized that what I had done was you know somewhat unique and and not a lot of people have have done what I've done or at least at you know an early age of these things and so I wanted to turn around and help other people do something similar and so not everyone you know, wants to live off the beaten path or are in the middle of nowhere and not be able to access it. But everyone has their own dreams and aspirations. And so that's what really drives me is being able to have those conversations and learn and understand, you know, what's important to people, what are they trying to do, and then be able to help them. And, you know, as much as people maybe want to ignore it, you know, your finances and money play a very key role in just about everything we do in this world today. And so a lot of people want to just kind of look away and ignore it. And the reality is that like money just is a tool and it gives you options. It gives you freedom. It gives you choices. And if you can leverage that, if you can use it effectively, then you can do anything. And so that's what I wanted to pursue and study and learn and understand to be able to help other people. And I spent a lot of time around engineers and spent a lot of time techs in a lot of different ways. And I understand how they think. Engineers especially, we have very specific brains and it's always fun. Like I started noticing this in my team when I was running the department was like, man, that's like one of my weird quirks, you know, where I could, I could see these things in myself and them. And it started to give me kind of a separation from the engineer brain. And so I could recognize where some of the challenges that we run into of just the way that our brains work, and they're very good in certain instances, and in some instances, they kind of limit us. And so now when I'm having these conversations around finances and money and business with engineers and architects, it's really easy for me to recognize, like, oh, I know exactly what's going on in their head. And that ability to connect, to relate, to communicate, to understand, one, gives me an advantage in helping them, but also I think people appreciate that, they relate to it. And so it's really about being able to have that connection and that relationship. And so that's why I picked working with this industry. I mean, I had the background, I had the experience, I understand the people, and I wanted to be able to help people that came from a similar place that I did to be able to do more and to be able to accomplish whatever it is they wanna do.

1:07:07 - Ryan
Right, right. Sounds like you've got a real, it just brings you joy to be able to work with engineers. It's almost like you're still in engineering, like vicariously through the architects and engineers you're working with, but at the same time you get to sort of be in Montana and you get to have this cool life. Was there anything else about, what else is about like your setup there in Montana. I guess I'm kind of curious about that a little bit. You got the, it looks like almost like a Native American quilt. I don't know. Is there, tell me more about that setup you got there behind you. Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:53 - Andy
Well, I mean, so the property that we live at is pretty unique. This guy built it in the late seventies. He's the only one that's ever lived out here. Here and he was a professional potter which was kind of crazy because my wife wants to be a potter and so when we were looking at the property there there's a house two guest cabins and then this other building and we were driving up we didn't realize that there was we didn't know what this fourth building was and so when we drove up it had a sign on it and it was the guys potter And so we, you know, there's a lot of reasons, I guess, that we chose this place. But the guy, you know, half of the house is a train car. And so it's a 1890s train car. And the other house is log, you know, backs up the National Forest. And so it's very private. You know, we have tons of land and different things we can do. And so, again, I just wanted to be able to go outside and do whatever. To have that freedom, to have that flexibility. And it was really about kind of building a life around our interests and to have accessibility. And so to not, you know, not have to drive anywhere or do different things. And so that's what we've been creating of, you know, where we live, the work that we do, how we do all that. It's all coming together. And it's honestly pretty crazy. We pinch ourselves pretty much every day about I mean, the view, the access, the things we get to do, how we get to live, all of that. And so we're just very grateful and appreciative of what we've been able to do and what that's turned into. And I'm just excited about helping other people accomplish similar dreams for themselves.

1:09:43 - Ryan
Yeah, that's pretty cool, man. Now, are you going to post some of your wife's pottery creations anytime soon? Have you already done that? I don't know. Have?

1:09:53 - Andy
She has an Instagram account but she hasn't been doing a whole lot yet. We ran into an issue with the electrical so we got to get the we can't hook up the kiln quite yet. So there's a few things out there but once she's really up and running then I'll probably share more of that stuff.

1:10:11 - Ryan
Okay yeah maybe you can share that with us too. We'll post that on our show notes if you're okay with that. Was there anything you wanted to hit on that maybe I missed I know we got a little off track with some of the questions but I just want to make sure give you opportunity to share anything like topics that you want to hit on today yeah I mean I mean I think we we really covered the gamut we had a lot of different things so I think that it was a really wide-ranging and also deep conversation as well so good job as far as guiding that yeah I appreciate it it was a pleasure I did I did a I remember the one thing. So because you talk about this freedom life that you live and I'm trying to tie that back to, you know, how can individuals who work at a company create that for themselves? How can business owners create that for themselves? And how can I, I mean this is a big question here, right? And how I as a business owner, not only create it for myself, but also provide a place that allows people to have that life for themselves? I mean, so maybe you can answer one or all those, but it's a big question. So, I mean, what do you think about that?

1:11:34 - Andy
I mean, is that possible? Yeah, it's definitely possible. You know, I think the thing that I did that not everyone's willing to do, is that I kept my standards and my expectations fairly low, and I worked really hard to increase my income and my opportunities and different things like that. And so what that did was I created a very big gap between what I actually needed to really to live and enjoy life, and then versus what I had. And that gap is what gave me options and flexibility.

1:12:07 - Ryan
And so I think a lot of people, as their income goes up or whatever it might be, their standard of living, their spending, these different things rises at a similar rate.

1:12:19 - Ryan
And it puts them in a position where no one really wants to go backwards.

1:12:24 - Ryan
And I never want to go backwards.

1:12:27 - Ryan
But what I did was I made sure there was a really big buffer in there in between so that I had options.

1:12:35 - Ryan
And I think that's the part that people miss is they just get too excited about, oh, I got this raise, you know, or I got this bonus and they just go off and spend it or use it or they increase their lifestyle.

1:12:49 - Ryan
And so once you've done that for a while, it's hard to kind of correct that.

1:12:54 - Ryan
Now, what you can do is say, all right, today's a new day.

1:12:58 - Ryan
This is my new baseline.

1:13:00 - Ryan
Everything moving forward, I'm going to be more strategic about what I do with that.

1:13:05 - Ryan
And it's honestly crazy, like I didn't make very much money when I started off.

1:13:10 - Ryan
And if you look at my career path and what I did, it went up substantially, even with working for other people, because I tried.

1:13:19 - Ryan
That was part of my objective was how can I increase my income?

1:13:23 - Ryan
And I also kept my spending very constant.

1:13:26 - Ryan
And even now it's similar.

1:13:28 - Ryan
And so what that does is we have this big gap, which gives us lots of options.

1:13:34 - Ryan
options and flexibility, which gives us that freedom.

1:13:36 - Ryan
And so it's really about you got to it helps if you can define it, if you know kind of what those are and you have specific numbers that you can work with and you can figure that out.

1:13:49 - Ryan
But it's all about creating a gap between what you need and what you have and working to grow that.

1:13:56 - Andy
Yeah, I mean, it sounds simple on paper, but obviously it takes it takes effort, it takes focus.

1:14:02 - Andy
and tenacity, right?

1:14:04 - Andy
Which these are cliches because it's the real world we live in and there's challenges out there, right?

1:14:11 - Andy
I mean, the economy is always shifting, it's moving, and we have day-to-day needs that have to be met.

1:14:20 - Andy
But I think having that focus is ultimately what helps us get through.

1:14:25 - Ryan
Yeah, I mean, I was willing to be very focused, I guess, And so I've had specific objectives and I've been focused on attaining them and lo and behold it works.

1:14:37 - Ryan
So, yeah.

1:14:38 - Andy
Awesome.

1:14:38 - Andy
Well, um, it sounds, it looks like you've got a great, a great setup there.

1:14:43 - Andy
And I think it's inspiring to me what you're doing with your business, with your, you know, with your setup and your life.

1:14:51 - Andy
So it's definitely inspiring to me.

1:14:53 - Andy
Hopefully it's inspiring to our audience.

1:14:55 - Andy
We learned a lot about project management.

1:14:58 - Andy
a lot about business and personal finances.

1:15:01 - Andy
So, like I said, we kind of hit the gamut today.

1:15:05 - Andy
So, I just want to let you share with the audience just how to get a hold of you, best ways.

1:15:13 - Andy
Could you tell us how to get a hold of you, Ryan?

1:15:17 - Ryan
Yeah, well, I'm very active on social media, especially LinkedIn.

1:15:21 - Ryan
So, LinkedIn's a great place.

1:15:23 - Ryan
It's ryansullivanpe to find me there.

1:15:25 - Ryan
I'm also on Instagram and Facebook I have a email newsletter that goes out every week It's called the trail report and so you can get that on my website or from LinkedIn But that's probably the best place and you know, I love talking to people I love talking to engineers And so if you got questions or you're not quite sure where to start feel free to reach out I got a ton of resources on my website as well Plus all the content I put out so there's always something that I can share provide or try and point you in the right direction Yeah, he's always got something interesting on his LinkedIn, like snowboarding or something like that.

1:16:00 - Andy
I'm interested to see what happens in the summer, so.

1:16:03 - Andy
Probably some more interesting things, so.

1:16:05 - Andy
All right, cool, Ryan.

1:16:07 - Andy
Well, great to have you today, and I look forward to continuing to learn from you and grow with you.

1:16:14 - Ryan
Thanks, Andy.

1:16:14 - Andy
I really appreciate it.

1:16:16 - Madeline
Hey, everybody.

1:16:16 - Madeline
Thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhance, and please leave a like, a subscribe, or a follow, and we'll see you next time.