0:01 - Madeline
So on today's episode we had Eddie Campbell who is with ABSI a steel detailer and he is also the co-host of Construction Brothers Podcast. Was there anything you found significant from this episode?

0:14 - Andy Richardson
Yeah there was a few things that were significant and we like to hit on the what and the why. Obviously we did a little bit of both, a lot of both actually today and we got a little bit nerdy with the steel detail because I'm a structural engineer and he's a detailer and so we really got into that and I enjoyed hearing his side of what we do because our work is hand-in-hand right he does the detailing we do the structural engineering I've never worked with Eddie before I never met him before until today so it was it was a good joy and pleasure to hear from his side of what that is and we really talked about for those that may not know what that even is or for your yourself, for example, we really talked about what this even is. And we got into that quite a bit. So whether you're somebody who's been doing detailing for a long time or brand new at it, I think it's going to be interesting for you to hear what a detailer is. We talked about some of the headaches in construction and maybe some ways to get around that. But the why was significant. That aspect of things. We talked a little bit about somebody named Pop. He was an inspirational person in his life. But I don't want to take it, I don't want to spoil that. It's toward the end, but it's actually one of the more inspirational parts of the show. So one of the things we like to do is we like to really, we like to really get you inspired, educate, or entertain. I think we did a little bit of both, or all three. We did a little all three today.

1:50 - Madeline
You said you've never met him. How did you two get to this point of interaction?

1:55 - Andy Richardson
So we haven't met officially, but LinkedIn, he's got a lot of hot takes on LinkedIn. And so I think some of his posts went pretty popular over the past few months or weeks. So got to know him that way. Also, his brother, Tyler, was on the show recently. And he's the co-host of Construction Brothers podcast. Eddie Campbell and Tyler Campbell. So yeah, that's how I met up with him. And our podcast manager, Jessica, also closed the loop on that and got us going with this. So yeah, thanks to Jessica for managing the podcast. Thanks to you for being the producer. Well, my name's Andy Richardson, and I've been doing this 27 years. This is the producer, Madeline, and this is the Enhanced Podcast. Where we find out from AEC professionals what their what and their why is and we just understand their story. Let's jump to the intro.

3:04 - Madeline
Welcome to Enhance, an AEC podcast where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why.

3:11 - Andy Richardson
Welcome Eddie to the Enhance podcast. Thanks for being Yeah, absolutely.

3:15 - Eddie
Glad to be here.

3:17 - Andy Richardson
So, um, we've never really met before. I think we've talked a little bit on LinkedIn and, um, yeah, I've had Tyler on. So now we've got the other, other half, the good half.

3:28 - Eddie
Sorry about that. Um, yeah, Ty and I, we, uh, we have fun. Usually he is the one that brings the fun into the podcast. I'm a little more on the serious side of things. So if I don't have him to hack on, then I'm kind of, you know, man without a land. But we're gonna be okay today.

3:48 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, well, you can hack on me if you want, because, you know, I'm a dang engineer.

3:52 - Eddie
Yeah, we just met, though. And I get along with engineers, believe it or not. So it's gonna be a good show, though.

3:59 - Andy Richardson
Sounds good. Well, I think we sent some questions over to you. And if you have anything you want to hit on, Eddie, you know, we can certainly do that. But really, just conversations. This isn't the Enhance AEC podcast. We're just architects, engineers, contractors, and trying to find out your story and what you do, and also getting to the what and the why of what you do as well. So that's really what we're all about. So I want to start out with this question just to kind of loosen us up a little bit, but it's kind of the would you rather. Game that our kids like to play, but would you rather? So you can either have no RFIs for a week, you can have guaranteed on-time deliveries, or you can have an extra crew, an A-team crew for a week. Which one would you rather have out of those three?

4:57 - Eddie
No RFI.

5:00 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, I thought you would say that. Why would you say that?

5:04 - Eddie
I'm 10 times more productive if I don't have RFI. So I think I could probably, if I had a whole crew and a bunch of RFI, I wouldn't know what to do with them anyway, because I can't move the thing forward. So I'm going with the no RFI, because I can grease the wheels then. We get a lot done when we know what to do. Yeah, that's an easy pick.

5:25 - Andy Richardson
Okay, awesome. It seems like that's a big problem in the construction industry. Would you say that's a big problem right now, or is it more of a symptom as far as these RFIs? I've seen a lot of conversation about that recently. In particular, it's probably just that I'm paying attention maybe.

5:50 - Eddie
I'm going to go a little different road with that question than maybe expected, and I'm going to turn on my own a little bit here. So I think in a lot of circles, I have seen over the course of time just watching back and forth on LinkedIn, watching what happens on projects, detailer subcontractors get pretty angsty about RFI and really forget about how we're Monday morning morning quarterbacking the whole process. And so in doing that, I cringe a little bit now. I probably have sat in that chair, I've probably even said all the words about how bad I hate RFI, and I do. I wish I had all the information to do my job. Everybody wishes that they had what they needed to do their job. But I also know that I don't always possess the whole story. And I don't always know more than my predecessor. And I think that there is a little bit of a chip that we can get on our shoulders about this whole RFI thing. So I think the RFI process serves a purpose. When it flows fast, it's very effective. When it is slow, when there's no communication outside of just maybe the I'm going to throw on a sheet and send up the chain down the chain. I get something that's not really the answer I was looking for. Then it can really slow things down. So I think the RFI thing gets a lot of hate. And I think there's more to that than just, I hate RFI, RFI are useless, or I've got a bad attitude about them. Yeah, I would really rather have everything I need. I would really rather do a job without them. But reality is like there was a lot that went on before I came to the picture. And it's pretty convenient for me to say, well, you know, I would have or if only you had when I might not know that a reason why the grid dimensions don't match is because the releases happened at two separate times and the engineer never quite got a chance to go back and adjust his Grids after the architect adjusted his so yeah, it's It's interesting and I think it's a There's a lot to that that question. I think it bleeds into the design conversation. I don't hope we're gonna have From you know, maybe professional to subcontract On the show here.

8:43 - Andy Richardson
I think yeah sure and Because also I'm trying to remember Mike audience to we are pretty broad in our audience, so some of our listeners don't know what an RFI is, for example. We have engineers, we have architects that do very much know that, and contractors, but some people that may just not even know what that means exactly. So can you explain that a little bit more for a person that doesn't know that?

9:10 - Eddie
I mean, we spend a lot of time on requests for information. Everything turns into an acronym in construction. Our names do, and our processes do. So the request for information is I have a set of contract documents a set of architectural structural documents that I Need to do something with in my case that would be detailed steel and I need to figure out how beams connect to columns and where to place angles and how that concrete is going to pour and I may look at the contract documentation, which is Kind of like my binding contract. It's the thing that I am supposed to be doing is I'm supposed to meet the the spec I'm supposed to meet all of the dimensional information everything I can find out that contract document and I'm also supposed to meet the intent of that contract document and so I am trying to weed out the things that are apparent and also maybe the things that are intent and I'm trying to do that maybe in a quick clip so I don't have what I need and I ask a question. That question goes through the RFI process which is a formalized question that goes from my hands as a subcontractor into the hands of the general contractor and hopefully lands in the hands of the person that has the information necessary for me to do my job. That can get very muddy though because sometimes it's not clear who that responsibility lies with. And so as a subcontractor that just really would like to be told what to do and have that dictated to me, it can get difficult getting non-answers or hey, wait, or closed RFI that aren't really closed. So that's the frustration that aligns with this whole RFI topic, for sure.

11:06 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, and I mean, you're coming at it as a steel detailer, so the other thing, I mean, if you don't mind just explaining what that is too. Some of the people that I work with, even architects, even some of the engineers that are maybe new or contractors don't even know what a steel detailer is. So do you mind just sharing what that is and what you do exactly?

11:28 - Eddie
Sure, yeah. And this is a running joke in the office is, so what do you do? And then we try to describe that and it's very difficult because we say, well, I'm a detailer and people think you're washing cars. Um, so I, if you, if you can imagine, uh, the structure structural engineer on a project is concerned with, um, making sure that the building has structural integrity is going to do an analysis on the structure. And it's going to convey things that are engineering related things that help that building stand and resist the wind blowing against it, the earthquake shaking it, the snow falling on it and things of that nature, the people walking through it. And so there's a set of concerns the engineer has. For steel detailers, we are not engineers. We're not professionals in the sense that we're registered or licensed with the state. We are here to put instructions together. We are here to interpolate. What the engineer wants and put that on drawings and then hand that to a steel fabricator so that they can make the steel. So I am concerned with every weld, every bolt, every plate, every location. I am in the details of the project. And I essentially have described as putting together kind of the set of Lego instructions for the building is what I will end up doing where a steel erector goes out the site, takes all the shop drawings, all of the piece marks that we assigned to different parts so that we can codify where to put what, and then they put them in place and hang it out. So I have never figured out how to make that a short answer.

13:23 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, I mean, I guess one way I've said it, too, is because, you know, it's an interesting conversation on my side, you know, well that okay, well the shop drawings have to get done or the detailing has to get done and If I'm talking to an owner maybe or even like a architect that perhaps doesn't hasn't done a lot of steel They'll say well, why don't you just do that? Yeah, it's a fair question, you know And there's a number of reasons I would say I don't know what your thought process is But there's a number reasons I would say, you know the detailing detailer exists versus the structural engineer doing it. Number one, I mean, there's a scope item. I mean, we just can't go to that level of quote detail because it would be cumbersome for us to do that is one reason. And I mean, because you're showing how to build every single piece of steel, exactly like this piece of steel, you need a bolt here. And it's going to be, you know, ours is going to show center to center of the steel column grid lines. It's going to be feet center to center. And then you do your minus dimension off of that because you're going to cut a half inch from the edge of the column plus the center of the column is maybe six by six. So you're going to subtract three and then another half. So you have to do all that math. Of course, nowadays, you're probably using some modeling software to help you with that math, I would imagine, right?

14:50 - Eddie
Yeah, yeah. We've been in Tecla structures for, I've been in it 21 years now.

14:58 - Andy Richardson
Did you do everything by hand originally or just AutoCAD originally?

15:05 - Eddie
My story of getting into construction is like a lot of others in that I fell into it. And so when I fell into it after college, Tecla Structures was handed to me. AutoCAD was not put on our computers because we to burn the ship's mentality. We're gonna learn how to do it in this 3D software. And so I never touched AutoCAD. Everything was always done in Tecla Structures.

15:33 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, nice. So that's, I mean, getting back to my analogy, you know, you're, you got this six by six columns, I drew it, let's say that engineer of record drew it 20 foot center to center. So now you subtract off the three for the column and another half for the standoff. So now three and a half and then on both sides, seven inches. So now the beam is 20 foot less 7 Something like that, right? I mean that's the kind of getting that's the kind of math.

16:00 - Eddie
Yeah, that's kind of math that Tecla is Essentially doing this these 3d modeling softwares are just big database calculators and so Yeah, we're determining that length and then we're determining Every connection plate to put on the beam where that length offsets because of web thicknesses and distances down because of K distances and like all kinds of things that are a part of steel and are kind of I guess a more of a niche when it comes to knowing about them, right? So we just get very hyper specific about every last thing on the shop drawings.

16:48 - Andy Richardson
And also exactly how to build it. I mean, in terms of the material list, you're going to need this much steel, these type of bolts, all that's going to be included in your scope of work, you know, because you're working. And by the way, are you working as an independent contractor or you work on staff with a fabricator currently?

17:10 - Eddie
Yeah, we're independent. So we're third party to fabricators now. I mean, I think Most of the fabricators I've worked with, I've worked with for, I don't know, eight, 10 years. You know, we work with these relationships on repeat for a long, long time. But yeah, a third party is how we do the thing. And it's interesting, you know, the way that the detailing process comes out and shop drawings specifically, and we're not the only industry, you know, that has shop drawings. And steel is not the only thing we've ever done a shop drawing for. We've looked at things like rebar. Rebar has shops as well. We've done things like glass and glazing. We've done a specific layout for masonry block before. We've done anything that we can touch and try to bring about a positive change for the job because we've gotten more construction detail early. And so ductwork is another example. Messed around with pipe. So all these have shop drawings. This is a part of a review process that most most projects have. The designers get done with what they have. Project gets awarded to subcontractors. Subcontractors have draft people that do these shops and these go up the chain for review. And so I think a big Big conversation right now, something I see on repeat a lot, is why aren't we putting more detail in design? Why aren't we putting more time in design? You mentioned earlier maybe not having the scope, not having, and what that comes down to is the amount of money that you would need to sit there and just look at every last little thing, that you need somebody else to take that. Perhaps that's a situation where you know you're an engineer and you do professional engineer things and there are people that are non-professionals that might be able to do this thing and maybe this is coming down to a good division of labor in construction where we've got a finite number of professionals that can care for the professional work maybe they need to focus on the professional things and then a division of labor would fall to somebody like myself who's not a professional who can do the drafting task which is just a drafting task but then there are wrinkles like delegated design connection design right how do how do we scope that out early and did the engineer have it and are you paying apples to apples the same amount for you know these two engineers that just proposed and one's gonna finish their scope for connections and one's not. One's gonna provide maybe all the stair design and one's not. And then there are things that come out of that, too.

20:15 - Andy Richardson
That's a great point. I mean, that's something that I talk about a lot, too, and I try to educate some of our, when we do quote jobs, and try to make them understand, okay, what are you getting for this fee, you know, that you're talking about? I mean, sometimes we're not really supposed to – you're not really supposed to price out engineering, but some people will come to us in that light. They'll bring, hey, we want to get a quote on this, and we've already got another quote or whatever, and then they'll say, yeah, you're $5,000 higher. Okay, well, did they do the connection design? Included that in there. But those are good questions to ask really prior to quoting, to be honest, and have those conversations because, you know, but I really like to just go ahead and include the connection designs for most of the buildings we're doing. I mean, you know, 10,000 foot range buildings, it doesn't really need a connection design delegated, in my opinion, or It's mostly sheer tabs and very simple kind of connections. I mean, if it does have a couple of complex connections, we can do that anyway. But that goes back to one of the reasons why I think the detailer is, it is helpful to have the detailer, which is, you know, I mentioned sheer tabs, but your fabricator may prefer, you know, a different type of connection. And I think that's what drove some of this delegated design. Design aspect, and I want to get your take on that. But my theory is, you know, what drove this somewhat, of course, was just we don't want to do it because it'll save us, you know, the engineer doesn't want to do it because it'll save us, you know, that $5,000 or $10,000 or whatever to go through that process. But the other thing I think it does is it does give some flexibility to the fabricator, right? Okay, connection by others. So now the fabricator can design that shear element or moment element to be an in-plate moment connection or a flange plate moment connection. And it gives them some flexibility because their shot might be set up for that. And so that's one of the pros of the delegated design. Now I always say, hey, this is how we drew it. If you want to do something different, you can always do that. And then submit an RFI. And there's, you know, that would be more what I call an RFV, technically, like using the government terminology, but our request for variance. And I think there's a place for that. So that's one of the reasons I think that the detailing occurs, too, is it gives the shop the ability to have this kind of flexibility. I mean, do you see that as well?

23:18 - Eddie
Yeah, I mean, that is a named reason, right? You get a few options. That are given in AISC to either detail those out, complete, or, you know, go all the way to the end of the road and delegate everything in full. And, you know, it could be regional. It could be the practice of the firm. It could be the money. Dare I say it could be the expertise It is insane to me how many engineers we run across that are not adept at connection design it scares them They don't really want that scope. They don't understand it as well, and they're not equipped to to cover it competently and so they don't do it and how would I know that well because over the years we've become close with certain engineers and you know what do you do when you don't have when you're trying to figure something out you're trying to to figure out you know who to subcontract something to because we subcontract these delegated designs you know I got to find a good engineer I got to find somebody to do this for me and so you ask around like hey would you want to do this that's not really what we do and so you're seeing you're seeing some engineering firms crop up now being a little more specific about like, Hey, uh, we're going to raise our hand. That's what we're after. Like we, we actually want to do that scope. We understand it very well. That's what we do. That's what we're set up to do. We chase that scope. We can help the engineer of record. And it, it can become a very useful check and balance to the job, uh, where the SEOR gets another engineer coming in behind them and in a Good professional working relationship they get to help one another make sure that they're nailing it in regards to the code and in regards to What is required in? That area for that job We see this a lot on East Coast seismic pockets are somewhat of an enigma to East Coast engineers Not all of them, but there there are quite a few that don't really know what to do with a design category D job. And so on repeat, we see engineers sending out drawings that don't really qualify the fact that we're in a design category D and there are pre-qualified connections we have to use. And a good connection designer can come in, aid in that, help out, get the thing on the right track, and make sure we nail it. So, um, it's...

26:16 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, and you're, you're down, you're not too far from me. I'm over in, um, South Carolina, near Beaufort, near Charleston, uh, your Milledgeville area, right?

26:26 - Eddie
Milledgeville area, and we vacation next to you every year, so...

26:30 - Andy Richardson
Oh, Hilton Read, or...

26:30 - Eddie
Yeah, oh yeah, love coming to Hilton Read, so...

26:32 - Andy Richardson
Okay, well give me a shout next time.

26:34 - Eddie
There you go.

26:35 - Andy Richardson
Uh, but my point is, you know, high wind, high seismic, I mean, this area of the country We have both. We double dip on that. And the seismic, of course, has some specialized connections, specialized aspects of it, like you mentioned. We've gotten pretty nerdy in this show so far, but that's important, right? Because we know, I mean, you know this, that we want to make sure that, like if it's a moment connection or a brace frame in a seismic category D, it fails in the right way, in what we call a ductile way. And those connection designs, like you were saying, pre-qualified, it means that it helps it fail in that ductile manner, right? I mean, is that what you understand it to be?

27:28 - Eddie
Yeah, more or less. So yeah, you want a strong column, weak beam design that fails in a predictable way. And so there are good and bad methods to design that. And there are certain things in the code that are dictated for those connections. I mean, there are literally just a pocket of connections that you're allowed to use that have been studied if you don't want to go put it in the laboratory and study it yourself. And so, you know, in regard to braces, there are things like, um, buckling restrained brace frames that, uh, you know, they're, they're like a product. Uh, they're almost like, they almost act like a fuse, uh, and, and break, um, in a predictable way. Then you've got other products, um, maybe like, uh, side plate or something like a Simpson strong tie is put out that, uh, they're, um, they're dealing with the size In a different way, but they've gone through a whole testing Regime just to get to get pre-qualified and so it's interesting. All that stuff is very interesting. We The the cool part of where we sit I always say we sit on the bottom of the pond and look up Like as it has still detail like this is the bottom like we we are at the bottom of the food chain we're below the sub like we're being paid by the sub and And we're below, I mean, maybe if we hire somebody, they could technically be below us, but a lot of times the people that we're hiring and working with are professional engineers, so they're at least peers. If not, we're listening to them, too. And so, at the bottom of the pond, looking up, you get to watch everything that happens above you. And you get to watch what settles out. And it is a very interesting view when you also are privy to hundreds of designs a year. And my pediatrician, when we take the kids in, they used to say, there are many varieties of normal. And in structural design, there are many varieties of normal. In architectural design, there are many varieties of normal. And I don't know how many times I have heard designers with a shoulder strut Say, you know, I don't understand nobody's ever nobody's ever said anything This is always working. This is always work. This is like normal for me and The the cycle of design that we go through like in that we have a lot of jobs over a short period of time It's just an interesting it's an interesting point of view to be able to watch and so I think that's what's exciting about what your brother's doing, right?

30:33 - Andy Richardson
The feedback loop concept of getting feel-proof, but not to give him too much of a plug today. But the feedback loop is what's really interesting, is what you're talking about, is what I'm hearing about. Because imagine if we had this feedback loop where, and I don't see it that way, by the way, you know, I mean, you said you're on the bottom. I mean, I think I see what you do is super important. I respect what you guys are doing. I mean, and a good detailer can save a job or it can not save a job, too. I mean, you could say that for a lot of the disciplines, but a good detailer can help a job substantially. And like the collaboration aspect, this feedback loop concept, I think that can really help improve a project but also can help improve the team and all these different people for the next job too. So do you think that's important or do you have any thoughts on that?

31:41 - Eddie
So the feedback loop thing is something that Clifton Harness from TestFit said to Tyler and I in our first official podcast episode ever. The first person that wasn't inside of our office that we ever interviewed and Clifton said the feedback loop and he was an architect before he started the software company and he was talking about people coming to you as a designer and helping you understand how it might be done better how your standard detail might be a little bit broken or could be improved how it might be costly why they think it's costly for their shop as opposed to somebody else's and who said, no, that's fine for me. And so that feedback loop was something that he kind of preached. And we've latched onto it. That's been six years ago. And we've been on repeat about it, about how the whole industry does need a feedback loop. And the bottom of the pond analogy is, yeah, I mean, are detailers important to a job? Can I make your life a nightmare as an engineer? Yeah, I could probably inundate you with stupid questions I could sit on the shop drawings and I mean as a result delay the steel there are all sorts of ways I can I can come up with excuses to not finish what I need to do on the other side If I have good intuition and I know how structures work, I'm a lot more likely to understand your intent and to be able to convey that to you, even to be able to ask you RFI that make sense and that you can say, yeah, that is in fact what I wanted or that would work. And I think that there could be a vast difference between the experience with two different detailers. The interesting part is how work flows. Work still does flow very much top to bottom. Starts with the financier. Goes, you know, the financier's working with an owner. We got to get the money flowing. That money has to buy design. There's going to be a certain amount of it to buy that design. That's going to start to set fees. We're going to come up with how we're going to format it. Is it going to be design build? Is it going to be a design assist? Is it going to be just a standard design bid? So if I go design, bid, build, now it's all very linear. And depending on whether I'm working on state work, government work, you know, whatever you do, maybe that linear comes with some pretty constraining contractual agreements that say, you're not going to have these conversations unless these people are in the room. And so information. Goes top to bottom, bottom to top, top to bottom, bottom to top. We find ourselves at the rebound point for most of the information that we need. It doesn't go beyond us anywhere. Like when we're asking for information, it's probably not because of somebody else. We're probably asking for information just for us, right? And if we're doing our job well, we become a good spokesperson for our fabricator. We advocate for the fabricator, we also advocate success of the project we grease the wheels on the you know whole design collaboration and we help the contractor understand a little more about what we need why we need it and we do that early so that they can start doing their part of coordinating which is a whole other side of this is like everybody's got to be holding up their end to make it go but a lot of that does come from feedback loop understanding Telling each other what I need and Just communicating well, and I mean I was talking with an engineer friend a couple weeks back. I said, you know, I used to think that I got paid to Just click and do shop drawings and I feel like the thing that I really get paid for is communicating well And that may be through a shop drawing I'm just communicating That's a good point.

36:00 - Andy Richardson
I mean, I want to take that and ask some questions about your practice in terms of, it's kind of the elephant in the room of sorts, because outsourcing is what I'm thinking about. The communication. But I want to start with, do you guys outsource overseas? Are you all local? I mean, how do you set your shop up?

36:28 - Eddie
We've got all of our detailers are in the United States. We do remote, like we have people working out of their house, so we've got remote and hybrid employees. But, you know, I mean, our guys have been with us a long time. We're a family-run company. My dad and I, once upon a time, Tyler. And so, yeah, very US-based. That's not to hate on the overseas bunches. Some of the teams that do overseas work, they do a good job. They've got it down. They've got project management down. They're not driving people nuts, some. Others are, they are driving people nuts.

37:17 - Andy Richardson
What got me thinking about it was the communication versus the work. I mean, because if it was just drawing beams, piece of cake, right? Modeling stuff in a computer, but it's not about the communication is more than half the battle. I mean, it is the battle, you know, I mean, and understanding the issue at hand, you know, is this a clip angle? Is this a sheer tab? I mean, the intent, that was so interesting because I know what you're talking about. Drawings may have something on like the general notes and we're, I mean, you know, I'm the dang engineer. That's how I open the conversation up because, I mean, we're guilty of some of these things. Some of it's, I could explain away some of it and then others it's just like, that's just how we, that's just how we've always done it because we haven't really been, you know, fully fleshed out that feedback loop, right? But the intent, like, you know, it's like, oh, well, we just say that generally just to cover ourselves.

38:21 - Eddie
It's CYA, yes, 100%.

38:24 - Andy Richardson
Cover your assets, is what I say.

38:25 - Eddie
That's right, yeah.

38:30 - Andy Richardson
But the thing about it is you probably can see through that from a mile away, usually. I don't know, do you normally see through those type of statements?

38:39 - Eddie
Yeah, I mean, yes. There are a lot of standard details that are CYA type of details. They you know what they put us in the position of is like how are we going to make sure that we iterate the intent to the extent that it needs to be iterated without going too far you know like if if I know that something's just a standard detail but you don't really care about it or don't need it and maybe there are 30 of those things like do you want an RFI on every single general note that I can find or do you want me to have some inference about this thing and do what I do what I know allow you to review my shop drawings and speak now but then where does that put me like if somebody comes back and starts going down to the letter of the law there's some art to it I feel like that's a lot different for me you know in 21 then it was two years in where You know, I might throw a little mini fit about something and say all the dang engineer But I'm the one that didn't have the understanding, you know, I'm just I Needed somebody to kind of pull me to the side and teach me I needed a feedback loop myself that moment for me happened through a series of I'll say just golf entertainment venues and that we did. We did 50 of them and got to work alongside of the engineering firm and worked very collaboratively where designs were completed and bid with detailing done. And that opened the door for me to collaborate with and speak to engineers every single day, to befriend them, to ask understanding from them and have them teach me. And so, That also opened the door for me to understand and work alongside of the design builder. That also opened the door and helped me to understand and work alongside the mechanical contractor, and the electrical contractor, and the guy that's doing the curtain wall, and the metal stud framer. All of the sudden I've gone from a little pocket detailer to getting to collaborate with these project stakeholders on the whole job. Brought a huge understanding in my life because I all of a sudden understood why information didn't exist on a document maybe. I understood how design iterated. I understood how the bidding process iterated. I understood some of the why. And man, was it an eye-opening moment when I got there. Now, working on a lot more projects that are just traditional workflows Nothing fancy. I'm able to take those lessons learned and pull them in. And I see engineers as allies until proven differently. These guys that I get to work across from, I usually have good working relationships with the engineers that we work with on projects. They generally like We have the same goals and Even maybe think a little bit of like we're analytical minds and so I can I can befriend that And through being allies like we can grease the wheels and make things go Which is ultimately what I want to do. I mean, that's velocity equals profit man If I can make the job go if I can spend less time on RFI, if I can make it go, then we can all make a little more money. Everybody would. I mean, you're not making money by doing a bunch of contract administration. Answering the phone all day, every day. You're not doing any work.

42:43 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, we call it plans out. That's how we, you know, have you ever heard of Southwest Airlines? They have a saying, wheels up. So ours is plans out.

42:52 - Eddie
Very nice.

42:55 - Andy Richardson
But you got to have right plans out, of course. So, but yeah. But plans out nonetheless. So I want to go a little off script for this, but I do want to ask you some, you know, we've gotten a little bit of the very detailed into the what of what you do, but I want to talk about you some more. So your background, I mean, you started out in the field. I mean, I guess you're, did your, I'm not sure if your father already had the detailing business, but why did you to go into the field first versus going straight into the office?

43:33 - Eddie
Well I played baseball through college and I got a history degree and when I got done with my last summer I went to Alaska and played up there and came home and I had zero dollars and a buddy of mine on my baseball team his dad had a concrete company in the area, and I needed quick work. And I locked in, I tied rebar and was a form carpenter for, I don't know, six months. And when I had all I could take of that, because that is a tough gig, I got myself a raise, a truck, and a trailer, and started remodeling bathrooms, doing just general carpentry, plumbing, and whatever you do in a bathroom, we did it. Setting cabinets, putting sinks in, whatever. And so did that for a year and a half, something like that. And so the detailing company didn't start until really when I was graduating college. It only existed about a year, year and a half after I'd graduated. Was in the company. So dad and I have had this thing as a together thing pretty much the whole way. I grew up with him as a contractor. He had 25 years as a general contractor and started this company when he saw Tecla Structures. He saw 3D modeling coming down the pike and got really interested in it and said, I want to do that. That's innovative. That's awesome. Like, let's do that. And we just kind of taught ourselves how to do the steel detailing. We were very much learned this together and taught each other so you know obviously dad when I'm when I'm young he's just pouring into me and then when Tyler came on I'm pouring into him but yeah it's something I felt some I fell into you I didn't mean to be here I spent all the summers working on in construction is just what I knew it's what I grew up you know running jackhammers or swinging sledgehammers doing demo doing whatever dad had me doing for Campbell Contracting back in the day when I was a teenager in between buildings.

45:57 - Andy Richardson
He was a general contractor himself?

46:00 - Eddie
Yeah he worked from anywhere from large larger middle-range contractors to running his own thing and so anything from being a vice president at a fairly large contractors in the late 80s, to being the guy, hands-on, that's basically owner, superintendent, project manager, everything guy. We were building Aaron's rents. We'd build those out. We'd either remodel or freestand them. So, yeah, he kind of did all sorts of things, and then was with a larger GC building, the headquarters for Tropical Sportswear International, which if you remember Duckhead, the old brand Duckhead?

46:52 - Andy Richardson
Oh yeah.

46:52 - Eddie
That was a parent company for them. He was building their headquarters and it was a job with Walter P. Moore and the detailer had Tekla and so the rest is kind of in the tally books. He bought Tekla and started making attempts at doing shop drawings with it, which was a different deal back in Tekla, like eight, than it is in Tecla so as far as that was the revision number of Tecla. Yeah, it was like a very early on on version of Tecla and Did not have near the features that it does now also didn't have nearly the breadth of material That it does now where you can do concrete and a lot of different things in it Right, right. So he was he was doing this big job and He saw this detailing company doing Tecla and doing detailing and he said I'm getting into that is that he had this detailing company drive him absolutely slap nuts through this project as a general contractor through RFI and change orders I mean it just it just drove him crazy and I think it was like yeah he was like looking at it you know you knew their fee and then he knew all the change orders and RFI they're sending and you know the pain to butt And it was kind of like, crud, man, I can do that. I can do that better than him. I can do better than this. And so he picked it up. Now, whether that was the case or not, I think we learned pretty quick. It's not easy. There's a lot to it.

48:27 - Andy Richardson
Well, you mentioned bottom. Bottom, I don't forget how you phrased it, bottom dweller. Bottom of the pond.

48:34 - Eddie
Bottom of the pond, yeah.

48:36 - Andy Richardson
You know, you guys are getting away. I get way more than the structural engineer on a lot of these jobs. And even the delegated designers, because I've done both sides of it, by the way. I've done one or two, we did actually do detailing on one or two jobs, but I'm like, man, I get more on delegated design than I do on the actual building sometimes.

48:59 - Eddie
It's crazy. It's a thing a lot of owners don't understand about what they didn't get for what they And a lot of general contractors that don't know that that's kind of sitting in the weeds too, so.

49:12 - Andy Richardson
And that's that big change order. It's like, okay, and I think what you were saying too is you're helping them see that, right? Like you're a spokesman for your fabricator, like the specifications, that little line that says you have to have it stamped, the connections have to be stamped by an engineer. That's a big line item right there.

49:34 - Eddie
Or done under the direct supervision of an engineer. Or done by an NISD senior detailer or something. I mean, like, yeah, there are all kinds of specs and notes and things that you can step in if you're not careful that you need to qualify. And those relationships, I mean, it's very bi-directional. Like, when you work with good teammates, you make each other better and so we've striven to surround ourselves with good teammates good people to work for and we do we work with good people we have good people and that is hugely helpful for for watching each other's back and making sure that my customer isn't also involved in just putting a bunch of CYA out there so you can say hey gotcha you know you did it wrong and Here comes the deduct. No, we're watching each other's backs. I'm trying with everything in me to make them as profitable as I can possibly make them on a job by just making that steel just slide through their shop and go to the field and slide together. I want it to be as no muss, no fuss as it can be. But that's a challenge. I mean, that's easier said than done. Or if some of my customers listen to me say that, it'd be like, yeah, you're not always successful on that, Eddie, are you? And I would admit, I'm not, but it is, it's a difficult thing to think of absolutely everything on every project and make sure that you're doing that, you're greasing the wheels, but that's the goal. That's what we aim at.

51:22 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, awesome. Well, it's good that you're looking out for the fabricator the project as a whole. So, which brings me sort of like leadership behaviors, leadership skills, and looking also at your profile, you seem to be open about your faith, open about obviously being a husband, a father. How does those, how do those aspects of your life, the faith, you're Christian, being a husband and being a father, how do you bring those into your leadership for what you do every day?

51:56 - Eddie
Service, I think, is first and foremost, is to serve the people around you and treat them well. So a lot of that comes out in kind of a golden rule mentality that you're going to do to others like you'd have them do to you. And I think that those are things that we try to live by in our company as a, you know, as a team together. And I think that those things are things that scale in business and make businesses successful, too. I want to do those things because they're in good character, not because they make me money. But I also know that when you do things well and treat people right for a long period of time, good things happen. And if you want examples of that, I'd point at Read's Carlton and Chick-fil-A is too, that have a service mentality about their business and have done very well. And so that I feel like is where it comes out. And not to get ahead of you, but then, you know, it also brings me to the why, you know, what's the why and the father part of that, the husband part of that, you know, my wife and my kids. Are absolutely, most definitely my why. You know, what I'm doing here every day is to try to provide opportunity for the people that are directly around me. And so I hope that that opportunity is opportunity that's provided to them, and I hope that opportunity is something that my team has for their families. So, I think that's how we try to apply that every day.

53:57 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, you're supporting your family, you're leading your family, you're leading your team, you're doing it through service. I mean, that sounds like significant. Thanks to me. So, thanks for sharing all of that.

54:14 - Eddie
Can I can I brag on somebody minute?

54:16 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, go ahead.

54:17 - Eddie
Go ahead My my grandfather my dad's my dad's dad pop. We've talked about him a lot on the podcast He's a He was an engineer when the University of Cincinnati got an engineering degree civil engineering degree and work for Messer construction co-opt and retired with Messer construction and If you talk to him right now and ask him what's important I He'd say family. Family is what's important. And the cool part about that is Pop has given a lineage to our family. And if you ask any of my cousins, anybody who knows him, anybody that might encounter him on a trip to the hospital where he was dealing with something hard, Pop just has a way of just kind of making people feel good about having been around him and he's got his priorities right and just had a make it a winner mentality was always make it a winner buddy was his line so what does that mean make it a winner like take a bad situation and make it better or I think it means the way I've always interpreted and I've said it to my kids every day when they get out of the car you know I've said it to them when they're getting out to me it means you have a choice what you're going to make your day. Your day might be hard, might be filled with difficult things. You might deal with people you don't like or don't want to have to deal with. You might get bumped, but you have a choice to make. And that's, who am I going to be in that? How am I going to act in that? And am I going to just let that carry me? Am I going to lose sight of the things that are important? And I think if you practice, Making sure that you look at the things that you are grateful for and thankful for on the daily That you can make it a winner. It's a winning day. No matter what happened. You might have lost money You might have had a very hard day. You might have had you might have had more than just monetary loss in your life But Are you grateful for the day that you've been given today? And pop He lived that. He didn't just say it. He lived it and still lives it right now, every day, even though at 95 years old, his days are harder now. Sounds like an incredible man. He is. He's an awesome guy. So I don't want to brag on him because he's the family lineage. We've got this lineage of building, this heritage of building, but we've also got this really cool family heritage. You know, that has just made that important. That's not just on dad's side, but Pop is just the shining example that we look at. He's just somebody that my brothers and I all agree, like, he's a cool guy to emulate, my dad too.

57:21 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, awesome. Well, I mean, I really hope to hear more about him and sounds like an incredible man. So, and I think we got a good name for the show today is make it a winner.

57:34 - Eddie
Make it a winner, I like it.

57:36 - Andy Richardson
Maybe that should be what we call it, but either that or something about feedback loops.

57:40 - Eddie
There you go, yeah. I like it, and hey, if you wanna hear Pop talk about his days in construction, we've done a cast on that and had him on, so he's a cool guy.

57:53 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, and obviously you've got the background and you've got your own show, the Construction Brothers Podcast. So talking about like pop and is there any other things that the Construction Brothers podcast has maybe lessons learned from that that has really helped you or grown you as a person, as a construction professional?

58:23 - Eddie
Yeah, the show functioned off of the basic premise that we were after ideas and encouragement. Any show had to do one of those two things. It presented an idea or it encouraged people. And we had a lot of encouraging people on and we had a lot of people with really amazing ideas on. And at the beginning of the show, I thought, I know how to fix construction. And six years later, I can tell you it's a complex problem with brilliant people working on it and it's not easy. And I guess if the podcast brought anything about it was kind of a It opened my field of view and it humbled me in a lot of ways because I Don't know how many times we had somebody on and we were like jeez. I mean, I'm I'm amazed you even talked to us Like you've got a lot going on. You've got a lot in your day and you're very sharp-eyed leading hundreds of people and I'm, here I am, in old piddly Milledgeville, just hoping to talk to somebody fun and cool and put it on the internet. And those great minds, those really brilliant people, they're all exerting their will on the construction industry, trying to make it better. So, big lesson learned is, There are a lot of people trying to improve it. I think we're going to have to approach this with a measure of patience and know that over time we will improve it if we want to. And, you know, you try, you try with everything in you to improve your pocket and your little piece of it.

1:00:11 - Andy Richardson
That's a really good perspective, Eddie. So thanks for sharing that. So, you know, I just want to be respectful of your time as well. And and really just give you an opportunity. Is there anything? Well one question and then Give you an opportunity just to share anything else. Maybe you want to share but what's working for you lately? It's kind of a generic statement.

1:00:37 - Eddie
But what what it's working for you generally like lately in a business or maybe it's personal but Personally I I've had to learn the lesson over the years that I'm not a, I'm not a cyborg and I have limits. So all those things that they told you in health class back when you're in like eighth and ninth grade, they actually matter. So, you know, get your rest, don't overwork, try to keep your priorities in line, spend time with the family that goes away, eat well, you know, all the things. I think it's some basic stuff done well for a long time that gets you in a good spot. From a business standpoint, recently on projects I've tried to focus down on the slow is smooth, smooth is fast mentality. And I think, I learned this from the guys in the field. All the older carpenters we're really good about just like laying the work out, thinking through it, and then doing it, instead of just attack. And so, and in construction and in projects, especially the fast-paced ones, a lot of times we're like, attack, and then just try to figure it out. And I'm trying my best to just say, you know, this may feel slow to think, but think, then act. You know, measure twice, cut once type deal. So that's definitely been a recent focus in business. And then on the fun side of things, we're trying to spend ourselves on developing a new tool to help improve steel fabrication as an industry.

1:02:39 - Andy Richardson
And so that's just kind of where we've spent We spend a lot of time Inventing Okay well you get that I mean, I imagine you probably get some of that from I mean the mentality from pop, but also your dad who had this vision for you know technology 20 years ago, but I mean I mean, I don't want to break any Secrets, but what's the tool or you have any ability to share? Any details?

1:03:12 - Eddie
So dad, dad definitely had and has an inventor's mentality. And he's, he's got this creative bend and just always wants to find a better way. And it's just insatiable. Just, I mean, loves finding a better way to do something. And he does that on his farm. He does that in, you know, construction is just like, The intrigue just drives them right so the tool that we've been working on is Is a software that we're building now To help fabricators we feel like I'm gonna speak in some obscurity, but we feel like in some ways Fabrication control software is kind of a one-horse race right now and And that it's ripe for some disruption and need some help. So we've been working on a solution to do that with and hope to, hope to come out with a release candidate for that, um, end of November and put something out there for 2026 in January.

1:04:28 - Andy Richardson
That sounds pretty exciting. Um, so yeah. Look forward to hearing more about that. And also, I mean, the farm, I think that's an underrated aspect. I mean, people that I know that have farms, that have worked on the farm, and there's so many things that go wrong in a farm environment that you have to be inventive. It's like, you gotta make this tractor work, or you gotta get, you know, you gotta weather things happening, and irrigation, and drainage, but you're basically an engineer You're an inventor. I mean, do you think that that was an impact on how he had to think about innovation?

1:05:10 - Eddie
Farming's been kind of like a late in life job hobby for him. And it's an outlet. I mean, agriculture right now is insanely inventive. And there are a lot of people thinking about agriculture right now. A lot of people talking about wanting farm themselves and do things it's just I mean if you're on YouTube at all and look at that that realm there's a lot going on there right so it's a lot of fun for him to just think through an event and my son worked out there with him for a year and a half we're actually we're we're at three generations now and in this business so my son is now working with us as an intern as he goes through college and it was a great experience for him. Maybe frustrating at times, but a great experience for him to run equipment and build things. I mean, you might be a carbiner one day, you might be running the track loader the next, and anything in between. So it was a good experience for him. And that kind of preceded him coming in and being able to work with us. Checking and doing whatever you can do. Great environment to learn.

1:06:33 - Andy Richardson
You've got that family business that they're interested in working in it and helping out. I've got six kids, but I still don't have one that's working in the business yet.

1:06:45 - Eddie
Well, did you know that about me?

1:06:48 - Andy Richardson
What's that?

1:06:49 - Eddie
That we also have six children.

1:06:51 - Andy Richardson
Oh, I didn't know that. What's your breakdown?

1:06:55 - Eddie
Yeah, so my oldest is a junior in college, and we're about every two years down.

1:07:02 - Andy Richardson
Boys, girls?

1:07:03 - Eddie
Three and three.

1:07:04 - Andy Richardson
Okay, so we have five boys and one girl. And then Madeline, she's my producer, so we usually do a preview. So she's here today, but not in the video camera, but listening in, and we'll do a preview of how That's how we like to do it, but she's my sweetheart. But yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I didn't realize that one about you. So the oldest is coming through, and then you've got a few others maybe that'll come through the business too, possibly?

1:07:35 - Eddie
Yeah, yeah. We went boy, girl, boy, girl, girl, boy. And so our second is a senior in high school. Out what she's gonna do and so my oldest is here working with us and I don't know it's kind of fun it's fun sharing this fun learning kind of passing it on we'll we'll see I'm trying my best to make sure that you know we're training them up help them learn things but that the family business thing is never a black hole that you fall in and can't get out of And so, you know, it's fun working with family and it's been fulfilling, but it can be challenging working with family too. I mean, we've got dad and Tyler and I, and now Jeremiah's in as an intern and it's been a good ride, but, you know, family business is family business.

1:08:45 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, I mean, that's the scary thing about it. I've not really pushed anybody. I mean, I say I haven't had anybody because I've had a few people that have helped at a pertinent level, we'll call it, like the producer or, you know, OG is one of them. I call it the office gopher. Yeah, there you go. And then one of my kids did spend a summer doing some drafting and decided, we mutually that it wasn't going to work out.

1:09:17 - Eddie
Well, I will say that letting them operate in a 3D environment has been a favorite for everybody I've allowed to do it. It's more like play than it is work. We're not trying to train them up and make them the next generation of drafts people. But at the same time, playing in a 3D environment is what they do anyway. And so they're digital natives. Speak that language very well. And so when I put them in Tecla and say, here, you know, this does this, that does that, it's pretty fun watching what they'll do. And so, um, I mean, I've had my, my eight year old playing around in Tecla and putting beams and columns in and having fun.

1:09:57 - Andy Richardson
That's pretty, that's pretty cool. I mean, it's a hard one that not a lot of people have access to that software. I mean, it's not a cheap software, right?

1:10:05 - Eddie
I mean, it's not, but, but, um, so Tecla, does have a student offering that you can get that's a free version to learn on so a little hot tip there if you want to pick that up and let your kids learn in it that is something that you can do.

1:10:24 - Andy Richardson
That's a great tip I mean because I get people all the time you know they're they're coming up there hey I'm and you may get this too where hey I'm interested in engineering I'm interested in science I'm interested in architecture I usually tell them, you know, go get Revit, which is R-E-V-I-T for those. But yeah, Revit or SketchUp, but this is another killer idea, is to grab Tekla and, you know, the student version. Have you had that question come to you before about other kids? What advice do you tell them in that situation?

1:11:04 - Eddie
Learn how to build. Love I love the idea of just starting out in the field and you know learn learn how to build learn how to use your hands in some ways, I'm thankful I started there because That's a backstop that I can always fall to you like if I I'm still detailing went away tomorrow. I Know I could still put something together. I know I could still you know going I Do something with my hands. I know how to run tools. I know how I know how to place the work And when given opportunity still enjoy it so I Love the idea of starting there Even if you want to be a professional if you want to be a an architect or an engineer what better than to start and learn How things are built and that's gonna be a that's gonna be a backdrop for designing from them on. It's going to make you a better designer.

1:12:05 - Andy Richardson
Yeah, I mean, I think the point about the feedback loop is, you know, is really what one of the reasons why that's so valuable is you're seeing it from the field angle. And then, you know, when you draw it in the office, you're like, well, that wouldn't really work out because I can't get that welding stick up in that little hole there or whatever. So I can't draw that beam that way or I can't draw that. Situation that way. But you might not have thought about it that way if you didn't work in the field. I didn't work. I did a little bit when I worked at one of the fabrication companies, but that would have helped me out even more if I'd have had some more field experience. So I can definitely see the value of that.

1:12:50 - Eddie
I mean, and I'm sure you've had plenty of opportunity to get out into fab shops and on sites and different things. It's a fun thing to do anyway so getting to see the work in place I think is a it's a fun field trip but it's also a great learning experience so yeah I mean get your hands dirty your boots dirty a little bit and learn how to work. The software is the easiest thing we train. Knowing steel is like this long journey knowing structures or Revit. I mean, especially for the digital native kid, like, yeah. I can learn a software. Um, now these are vast softwares and there's a lot to them, but I mean, I I'm a lot quicker at getting you proficient in a software than I am at teaching you how not to do something that's going to be either dangerous or detrimental in steel.

1:13:55 - Andy Richardson
Would you rather have some construction knowledge or computer knowledge that can draw, you know, can do the Tecla?

1:14:04 - Eddie
I want somebody with character, I want somebody with intelligence, and then I want somebody with aptitude. Because I've had That have had a lot of building experience, but man they I mean when it come time to operate in the software like there's they were just like maybe a breakdown but I'd say character and an intellect and then aptitude is kind of how I'm looking at hiring I want to find a good person first And if they're good person, they're smart Given enough time we can train in a lot of what we need to train Fair enough.

1:14:55 - Andy Richardson
Well, Eddie, it's kind of wrapped this thing up today.

1:14:59 - Andy Richardson
I appreciate your time today.

1:15:00 - Andy Richardson
It's been a lot of fun just getting into some nerdy detailing stuff, which I love, and I know you do as well.

1:15:09 - Andy Richardson
And then also finding out about some of your passions and things.

1:15:12 - Andy Richardson
But was there anything else that I didn't hit on that maybe you wanted to just shout out or anything?

1:15:19 - Eddie
No, man, we've covered a lot of ground.

1:15:21 - Eddie
I really do appreciate the invite.

1:15:24 - Eddie
So, I don't know.

1:15:25 - Eddie
Tyler and I always sign off with go build something awesome, so maybe I'll just, I'll dovetail it with that.

1:15:31 - Eddie
So, y'all go build something awesome.

1:15:33 - Andy Richardson
I like that.

1:15:33 - Andy Richardson
I like the make it a winner.

1:15:35 - Eddie
Make it a winner.

1:15:36 - Eddie
That'll work, too.

1:15:37 - Andy Richardson
I left and learned today.

1:15:38 - Eddie
I mean, that's a big one.

1:15:39 - Andy Richardson
So, thank you for sharing that.

1:15:41 - Andy Richardson
And then, how do people find you, Eddie?

1:15:45 - Eddie
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn.

1:15:47 - Eddie
look me up on there.

1:15:49 - Eddie
Pretty active out there and always happy to make a connection with people.

1:15:53 - Eddie
So that would be the that would be the place to find us.

1:15:57 - Andy Richardson
Go ahead and follow Eddie.

1:15:59 - Andy Richardson
Connect with him because he's got some hot takes on construction.

1:16:05 - Andy Richardson
And I like I like your hot takes.

1:16:07 - Andy Richardson
So check those out.

1:16:08 - Andy Richardson
And also his podcast.

1:16:10 - Andy Richardson
What's the podcast called again?

1:16:12 - Eddie
So Construction Brothers podcasting looks up on LinkedIn.

1:16:15 - Eddie
And we're also on Spotify, Apple, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:16:19 - Eddie
Yeah, awesome.

1:16:20 - Andy Richardson
And you've got a detailing company too.

1:16:22 - Eddie
What's the name of that?

1:16:23 - Eddie
And that's ABSI.

1:16:24 - Eddie
You're a better spokesperson for me than I am.

1:16:27 - Andy Richardson
Hey, I gotta help you out, man.

1:16:29 - Andy Richardson
We gotta grow your brand, grow our brand too.

1:16:32 - Andy Richardson
There you go, yeah.

1:16:35 - Eddie
Yeah, absi-bim.com is our website.

1:16:40 - Eddie
Steel detailing, BIM.

1:16:44 - Andy Richardson
Now people know what detailing is, so if they ever come across that, they're going to know who to hire, right?

1:16:51 - Eddie
I had no idea what steel detailing is, but if I ever need to use it, I know who to call.

1:16:57 - Andy Richardson
Well, Eddie, hey, God bless.

1:16:59 - Andy Richardson
Thanks for being on today.

1:17:01 - Eddie
Thanks for the invite.

1:17:04 - Madeline
Hey, everybody.

1:17:04 - Madeline
Thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhanced.

1:17:06 - Madeline
And please leave a like, a subscribe, or a follow, and we'll see you next time.