0:01 - Madeline
All right, so on today's episode, we had John Anthal, who is with Mancini Duffy, and he is an airline architect. What did you think about this episode?

0:10 - Andy
I thought it was interesting. I never have talked to an airline architect before. And there was some aspects about even just airports that was intriguing to me. And I didn't know the difference between a terminal and a concourse. I don't know the difference between a terminal and a concourse. Good old boy from South Carolina. I don't fly too much so I mean maybe once or twice a year and so I don't really think about those type of things but after we had the conversation it got me really thinking about the impact and the importance of good architecture inside of an airport and you know maybe you only fly once or twice a year but I've never flown. But whenever you do it'll potentially impact you.

0:58 - Madeline
Maybe you'll fly on one of the projects that he worked on or you'll go to the airport Yeah, one of the places that he worked on so the part I thought was kind of funny was when y'all are talking about Just how they're making airports now to where you can you know get checked in you can do your ticket and do your own bag now it's some specific Airport, it's kind of like a grocery store where you can check out and I'm like I thought that was kind of funny because you're an introvert and I'm an extrovert and I've gotten to the point where I'm like I'm a selective extrovert and I don't wanna think about having to interact with people.

1:32 - Andy
And on the other hand, even though I'm an introvert, I get nervous about that. I do too. Like about the computer part of the kiosks. Because I guess it was habit that I've done that for so long. So when I go up to an airport and they have these kiosks, I just feel like I should.

1:49 - Madeline
It's wrong. It feels wrong. You should have that uncomfortable interaction with a human being.

1:54 - Andy
Yeah, yeah. You have to go through that, you know? Because I want somebody to say, you're good. Yes, that's exactly what I want. Whereas if you did it on the computer, it's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I mean, I don't get paid to do this.

2:06 - Madeline
Going into the McDonald's now, and you don't go to the cashier, you go to the computer thing. And it's just like, is this OK?

2:14 - Andy
Yeah, exactly.

2:15 - Andy
So I thought it was really intriguing. And he had a really good inspirational point toward the end, which is one of the things we want to do on the Enhanced podcast, is find out how people enhance the world around us. So you'll have to listen all the way through, but as most episodes, we like to really build up to that.

2:36 - Madeline
I feel like you do hit on it before you get to the actual point. You can tell this person, they really have a passion for what they do, because you don't do something if you don't have a passion for it, if you don't want to do it. And so I think that we hit on that a lot of times, the architecture, construction, and engineering realm is that people want to do this and they feel like they're changing the world around them through architecture, engineering, and construction.

3:00 - Andy
Yeah and I think maybe even if you're not into airline architecture or airline construction or engineering that you are hopefully going to learn something today because and be inspired because the ideas that we shared and talked about today will apply to these other areas that you're in.

3:20 - Madeline
Yeah, for sure.

3:22 - Andy
Well, my name is Andy Richardson, and this is Madeline, our producer, and this is the Enhanced Podcast. I've been in the structural engineering field for 27 years now, and I'm still learning so much from people all over the AEC industry. Join us for the Enhanced Podcast as we interview people and learn their what and their why. Let's jump to the intro.

3:49 - Madeline
Welcome to Enhance, an AEC podcast where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why.

3:56 - Andy
Hey, John. Welcome to the Enhance podcast today. Thank you, Andy. It's good to be here. And thanks for being on. So I got a question for you to kind of kick us off here. I noticed that you were an avid book collector. So if money was no object, what is the book that you would want to buy next?

4:18 - John
Ooh We're talking like special editions original prints.

4:23 - Andy
I mean it's sky's the limit.

4:24 - John
Yeah So I'm actually a really big fan of Edgar Allan Poe So I would probably try to find like a first edition of some of his poetry.

4:33 - Andy
I think that would be Pretty cool thing to have in the collection nice, so you'd like to read the Edward Edgar Allen Poe poetry and study some of his things.

4:43 - John
Yeah, definitely. And my daughter's into it right now. So we kind of collaborate on some of those things and talk about them in depth, analyze it. It's fun.

4:51 - Andy
Yeah, that's a good hobby. Sounds like, And so that's what are you reading right now? Some Edgar Allen Poe or anything else?

5:02 - John
Right now, I'm reading The Jungle Book to my younger daughter. So I like to read some of the the classics that are for children with my kids. So that's one of them that's at the top of the list right now.

5:14 - Andy
Yeah, awesome. That's good. That's a good habit for sure. And teaching her how to read, like not just how to read, but the habit of reading, you know, so important, I think. And then another hobby or habit that you have that we noticed, we've stalked you a little bit, but another habit that you have is compulsive list making. So how has that impacted and and maybe the book collecting but how has these habits that you have impacted your career?

5:45 - John
So I think I think it all stems from like a curiosity about things around you And that's why I make lists is because I'm always I'm kind of like obsessing about finding ways to be more well-educated And it doesn't have to be like formal education, right? It can just be like knowing things around you in the world and their place in it, and how it might impact or influence other things. So I think one of the things, if you're reading our website, was that I made a list about all the classical music because I wanted to learn about it and start to kind of understand its origins. I think that habit of being deliberate and rigorous with some sort of study, any kind of study, is important. It kind of enriches your life. And then you can move on from that and start something new. And always reference back to it. So I think that's why I like doing that.

6:39 - Andy
And I imagine there's probably some goal setting, too. Or do you like to set goals for yourself?

6:46 - John
Yeah, absolutely. I think whether it's something discreet, like trying to listen to classical music and educate myself on that, or if it's working on a project and trying to understand the client's goals and my goals and where they might overlap, I think it's always important to use the list making tool to inform the decisions that you make moving forward.

7:09 - Andy
Yeah, awesome. And I mean, I think one of the things about list making is just like the connections that you see as you're making a list of classical music. The first three or five is like obvious. Unless you're doing a research project, like, okay, maybe you're not into classical, but for you, books, and all the books you've read or all the books you're thinking about reading, the first five or seven is usually pretty easy to get to. But then after you push forward, it's like, okay, what else is there? And then it sort of stimulates the, it's like a brainstorming activity. It stimulates ideas. And so I think from that standpoint, it probably helps from a creativity aspect as well.

7:50 - John
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I, I really like going after topics that I'm I find that that adds like a layer of understanding to the world that you didn't carry before. And you find, like you said, weird connections. Everything is sort of webbed together. And reading one thing might lead you to think about a problem that is completely unrelated in a different way. And that kind of interplay between knowledge that's gained is really, really intriguing to me.

8:20 - Andy
So you're an architect and And what got you into that?

8:28 - John
So I always was interested in the built environment. I liked interesting buildings and skyscrapers and towers when I was little. I always thought they were really interesting. And then as I got a little bit older, I started trying to appreciate some of the more artistic things in life. So the interplay of light and shadow inside of a space was kind of interesting to me. Making forts out of pillows and blankets as a kid and you'd have like a crocheted blanket and you'd see how the light would dapple through the holes in the blanket. So that kind of spurred me to understand architecture a little bit more deeply and then ultimately go to school for it.

9:09 - Andy
So good to get a sense of your background and what got you started with that things. And then at some point you've pretty much been with the same company for most of your career?

9:25 - John
So I was with only two firms in my whole career. First one for about six years and the last one for the last dozen. So don't see myself going anywhere.

9:35 - Andy
And what's your specialty?

9:38 - John
So I lead Mancini Duffy's aviation practice. So we work on things for the airlines or for the airports themselves. Everything from retail and concession space to operation space for airport itself, and then high-end lounges and specialty spaces for the airlines.

9:59 - Andy
Okay, awesome. How did you get going into that aspect of things?

10:07 - John
It was completely by happenstance. When I first started at Mancini 12 years ago, we got one project and they just put me on We had never done an aviation project in that office before. And so I just went through it and I knew immediately I loved it. It was different than anything else I'd worked on before. There was a lot of intricacy to it and you had to be aware of what was going on above and below you because there's so many other functions in an airport. The complexity just really intrigued me and I wanted to do more. So I asked. And then we just started getting more and more of those types of projects.

10:46 - Andy
Are you able to share what that first project was, or maybe at least a sense of what it was?

10:51 - John
Yeah, sure. Our first project was with American Airlines at JFK in New York. They have a pretty large lounge that they wanted to renovate. And so we were able to do it. It's about feet 20,000 worth of space, two different tiers of lounge for them, Admiralty and Flagship.

11:12 - Andy
So I just did my first airport. Um, it was interesting because, um, I think it was my first one, but it was related to this idea of kind of, I think about it like an outfit of, of this space inside of the airport, right? Like that's basically what you're saying is this lounge, it's almost like a building inside of a building is the way I think about it, you know?

11:38 - John
And yeah, it's great.

11:40 - Andy
Structural engineering on this. I mean, it's art, the building's already there, but, I realized, well, these spans are still pretty significant and these spaces are pretty, I mean, you just said a 20,000 square foot space inside of an existing building. So that's an interesting aspect of it, right? Yeah, yeah. But also, it's just a fun thing because you're dealing with a very unique aspect of travel and airports. What makes it, what goes into your mind? How do you account for the needs and demands of the airport versus maybe a lounge on the side of the road in town? So how's that different and what makes the design different?

12:27 - John
So I think if we want to talk about a lounge specifically, you are dealing with a captive audience. However, that audience isn't captive when they make their selection about who they fly with, right? The offering that an airline is able to provide is deeply ingrained in their marketing identity and their brand identity. So you're going to have an airline who wants to attract a certain flyer or a certain traveler. They have very high expectations, generally speaking, and they all have to fit into the feeling that you get when you fly with them. Right like that certain certain brands have different feelings And so you have to be able to communicate that through the built environment.

13:15 - Andy
Yeah, that makes sense And so this is specifically like that the American Airlines lounge that you would move into for me I'm frequent flyer type points and things. Yeah, I guess I don't know what their gold or silver system is That would be the type of thing that you'd be the lounge for those special flyers basically, right and Yeah, absolutely.

13:38 - John
I mean, we do things throughout the airport that's available to anyone that's flying, but it can be something as simple as the check-in booths, where you go to check your baggage. They're branded in a certain way, the materials they use are very specific, and the feeling that you get and the way that you're able to interact with the teller are all communicated through the architecture itself. And that's all got to be in line with the brand standard and what amenities they're trying to advertise. So all those things help the traveler make a choice, and then the experience that they have will either reinforce that they made the right choice or not. So we take the first step of the problem, and the workers have to then take the second half of the problem.

14:20 - Andy
Right, right. And would you say that was one of your highlight projects that you've worked on since you've been doing airport work?

14:28 - John
Yeah, definitely. The first one is always important, I guess, but I liked it for a number of different reasons. One is because it obviously introduced me to the aviation practice and the intricacies involved there. But additionally, it was done as an IPD project, which is integrated project delivery, so an IPD. So we worked with a contractor up front, and it's a tri-party agreement between the owner, the general contractor, and the architect, which was a really interesting way to work, kind of similar to a design design built, and so it really opened my eyes to different contract types as well, which was nice.

15:08 - Andy
Right, so what was the biggest thing there that made it, did that make it a smoother project, or?

15:16 - John
Yeah, I certainly think so. In the typical format, you would put together a design with the client, and then you would create the drawings, and the drawings get bid, and then somebody pokes holes in what you've done and asks questions, and tries to find maybe some budget alternatives, but it's all retroactive, right? Like we've already designed the thing, we think it's done, and then changes have to happen. In either an IPD or a design build, we get to interact with the contractor from the start, and then we're able to kind of gut check things along the way. They can say, hey, I feel like this material that you guys are selecting is gonna be a little bit more pricey than if we went with this option, what do you think of this? And we can start to make those changes as part of the design process instead of in reaction to it. And that I think is incredibly helpful to create a more cohesive project and ultimately a better and more financially viable project for the client.

16:12 - Andy
And what makes it different from design build exactly?

16:16 - John
So the IPD project, it's a contract format where you would be determining KPIs. And if you meet those KPIs, are under budget or under schedule time allotment you get payouts according to the KPIs that were predetermined between three parties. So the client gets to determine what they feel is important for like acceleration or budget and then if you're able to meet those milestones then the underrun gets redistributed amongst them. So you have your fee for the project but then there's the potential for shared savings across all three parties.

16:53 - Andy
Yeah sounds like a good project delivery system and how does, but that's not necessarily the case for all airport jobs.

17:01 - John
No, no, certainly not.

17:02 - Andy
This is some more aviation jobs. This is more like this particular situation. How did that come about? Whose idea was it to go with that project delivery system?

17:11 - John
That one was client driven.

17:12 - Andy
Yeah, they said, hey, I want to do this.

17:14 - John
And we said, sounds cool. Have you done much IPD since then? We only I've only done it three times. Successful all three times, I would say, but phased out somewhere around 2021. People start chasing that contract format.

17:37 - John
What happened?

17:40 - Andy
Was there some downsides to it or is it too complicated?

17:44 - John
What I've seen as a trend is that contractors are being involved in the airport setting, earlier regularly anyway, and so CM at risk has sort of become the more predominant route to go, and then they don't have to worry about doing the payouts or the shared cost savings at the end, right? So they get the benefit of sort of a pretty strong ROM pricing up front, and then they don't have to worry about payouts or underrun later on.

18:14 - Andy
Right, so kind of a design assist is what some people to call that is what I would maybe another way to think about that too. But construction management concept there is what you're presenting is what you're seeing a lot of, I guess.

18:30 - John
Yeah, and the benefits that we saw in IPD in terms of the collaboration and getting all that information up front is still happening, right? So, I'm from a project perspective still happy with that format over IPD.

18:43 - Andy
Yeah, definitely.

18:44 - Andy
It sounds like a good way to do it. Maybe we can see if we can find some jobs like that too.

18:53 - John
Yeah, for sure.

18:55 - Andy
So we didn't want to spend too much time on this, but BIM is something that you started with in your early part of your career. What did you learn as a BIM coordinator and how has that impacted you currently?

19:14 - John
So obviously it's become pretty ubiquitous. Particularly in the airport world. When we're doing terminal builds, it's an absolute necessity that everything be three-dimensionally modeled and coordination models have to be checked constantly. So fluency with that kind of software is, I think, paramount for anybody that wants to work in an airport, let alone an AEC in general. I would say that my experience early on in my career was was that of actually sort of a teacher. I was hired at Mancini to be the BIM manager, but mainly to help instruct the staff on the software as it was primarily a CAD office. I really enjoyed that process because it was something I had never done before. I'd never been a teacher of any kind. And to learn how to communicate effectively with a group of people is, is something everybody should learn. It's hard. And sometimes when you think you're being clear, you're not, and you've got to learn that really fast.

20:18 - Andy
Well, and a decade and a half ago or so, I guess, or a decade ago, I mean, lots of change, even in the BIM world. What are some of the biggest changes that you've seen or trends you've seen in the area of BIM?

20:36 - John
So I'm really pleased to see that a lot of the subcontractors are using it. In the field, doing design-build projects, all the subs have fluency in Vim now. They use Navisworks or some other clash detection software, and so shop drawings are generated from almost a shared model at that point. It's really conducive to a more collaborative construction administration phase.

21:07 - Andy
You know, there's some thoughts out there and people that are down on BIM right now. So, that have, you know, it feels like it's gone through some cycle of up and now people have tried it for, you know, a decade or two decades and there are people that are down on it saying, you know, quote, I've seen some people saying BIM is dead. I mean, what do you think about that?

21:32 - John
Do you agree? I would disagree, no. Not from where I'm sitting or, you know, people that we're interacting with. It's still pretty important.

21:42 - Andy
What's the biggest thing that makes, or what about it makes it so important, particularly in your line-up?

21:48 - John
I mean, I would say from an architectural standpoint, being able to document a set of drawings with the kind of the automated features, right? Things being tied in together, scheduling, all that kind of stuff, it's just, it can't Going back to a CAD format and Excel spreadsheets, that's not gonna fly. It's gonna eat so much time to get those things running. I could never go backward.

22:14 - Andy
Right, right. But you're beyond that aspect of things right now. You're in a design role and probably a project management role, is that correct?

22:24 - John
Yeah, that's correct. I lead our aviation sector of work overall nationwide. So, primarily in a project management position, but depending on the client needs and my relationship with them, I could be anything from a project manager, designer, project architect.

22:41 - Andy
And so you started out with this cool lounge project. Any other interesting jobs you worked on over the past decade?

22:53 - John
Some of the ones that I find really intriguing are ones that have to be phased during operation. So I did a project in Boston that was about a co-location. So one airline moving from one terminal to another. And at the same time, the terminal that was occupied needed to continue to operate. So you had to phase the drawings so that you could do the work while the airport is operating and people are swinging. So you've got business units for them moving. And it includes things like, you know, uh, uh, tech ops, which is, you know, the folks who work on the planes, all the parts and the storage associated with them and the workshops, all those things. And so we're basically overnight flipping them one piece at a time, uh, all the way down. And it was like a, you know, a 75,000 square foot project. Uh, which was, that was probably the most fun, most intricate.

23:47 - Andy
It seems like everything in airports is in the thousands. Based on what we've talked about so far. And that makes sense. I mean, airports are big. The scale is big. They're probably not really building any too many new airports. It's a lot of renovation work, I would imagine. Is that true?

24:12 - John
I would actually probably disagree with that. In New York right now, at JFK, they're building not one but two terminals at the same time. Brand new. So we have a new terminal six and a new Terminal 1 that are both being constructed simultaneously. And they are, I mean, they're massive, massive projects. Outside of New York, I think what you're seeing is a lot of expansion. So they're doing concourse additions and things like that. You know, that's pretty common now. So I think you get a good overlay of renovation work, but there's also still, you know, big, big terminal builds going on.

24:50 - Andy
Yeah, and you guys involved in the terminal work there in New York?

24:55 - John
So we are doing work inside of both buildings, but it's work directly for the airlines or for concessionaires. We're not doing the terminal itself. That has to do with contractually working with the authority who has jurisdiction there and the investors. I prefer to contract directly with the airlines and work with brands and things like that. That's where our sweet spot's at right now.

25:20 - Andy
Okay, that's fair. And so you've done work with American Airlines, and how do you, what aspects of that branding do you bring to the table, maybe with like an American Airlines, or how do you do that, you know, exactly? I mean, what are you looking for? How are you bringing that into the lounge or a similar project?

25:44 - John
So most of the airlines have a pretty strong marketing identity and a brand identity. They do have standards that they like to reference. I would say that from an architectural standpoint, what we're able to do is understand the product that they want to sell. And oftentimes this is like a hierarchical thing, right? You have business class or first class and coach. And so those elements and how they translate to either a lounge type or topology or some other offering in like a hold room or whatever, we would want to work with the elements that they deem important for those from a branding perspective and then say, okay, architecturally, here's how you can create that same tiered system. And that might be through the use of materiality, might be through the use of a space or a food type offering even. All of those things start to create like the separation that you wanna see in a branding element. And then that stuff gets standardized as well, and then rolled out so that they have a unified brand notion throughout the country.

26:48 - Andy
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I never really thought about it like that, but it's almost like you're in the lounge, you're almost in the airplane, you're almost, the connection is happening as you're in the lounge, or vice versa. As you get off the airplane, you still feel like, okay, I'm still with this brand, I'm still connected to this airline.

27:09 - John
I mean, are you loyal to an airline? I'm curious.

27:13 - Andy
I'm not really. I would say I do tend to use American probably more than Delta. It's probably those two. But I actually was doing a flight last night, and I think I was looking at Southwest for part of it and Allegiant for part of it. But that was just because it was a weird last minute thing. For me, I'm not terribly allegiant to one airline, no, but if I had to pick one, I'd probably just, American would probably be the one that I tend to lean toward. I don't know why that is. I guess they're probably the branding that you've done has worked, maybe.

28:02 - John
I love that you attribute me with why you fly That's fantastic.

28:07 - Andy
I appreciate my guest, you know.

28:12 - John
What's like the best experience you've ever had in an airport? I'm just curious because.

28:18 - Andy
I tell you, I had, um, now we're not lounge people. I gotta admit. Um, so I'm not quite that cool. I wish I was, but, um, I will say, you know, my wife and I went on a trip about a year ago and it was just really fun. Because we had a pretty good layover and it was just really fun to sit at a random place and have I think some kind of oriental dish or maybe Mexican dish and it was a nice it was a nice location inside the airport and it was just fun like and then you were able to go over it's almost like being in what is a food court and it's just you know it feels like you're in a food court you're you're like hey let's get a little bit of Mexican let's go get get a smoothie for me that's fun you know so and it was a little mini date for us during that layover you know which that was the first time that we traveled together since we got married like a long time ago without kids yeah so my kids I've been there man Madeline she's giving help here but anyway yeah so it was fun to just travel with her and that was different than some of the times when I've traveled alone and usually when I travel alone my biggest thing that I do is just get a cup of coffee and you know work on a laptop so but and that's fun too for me not necessarily the work but the there's a change of environment and people watching that that's kind of fun you know and just like it's just interesting to see all the different you know walks of life come So that's my take on the airport, I guess.

30:02 - John
So, so what you just described is exactly what they're trying to capture, right? Like there's different, you are different people in their, their, their like demographic that they're looking out for. The single traveler, right? Just heads down, need a place to work, want a good cup of coffee. The couple that's out on a vacation and they're, they want to spend a little bit extra because it feels special, right? They get a little meal or something. You want to have space for that. All of this goes back to the idea of customer experience inside, right? What classifies a great airline? What classifies a great airport? All of those things are about meeting the demographic needs of those people. I mean, even one of the things that's huge is how do I get out of the airport on a rideshare? I've been to airports where you're like, I don't know where the signs are. I can't find my way. You're wandering around your lost city you don't know. And then you go to some others and there's just signs and they're like, go this way, it's right here. Or they have a shuttle immediately as soon as you get out of the terminal. There are simple things that once you experience it, once you never think about again until you don't have it in front of you.

31:11 - Andy
Yeah, signage, I mean, that's huge.

31:13 - John
Yeah, wayfinding is a huge deal.

31:16 - Andy
You know, especially, because you can't like GPS it like in a car. I mean, they probably have that now. But you just don't know where you're going. You don't know where you are. I mean, you've never been to this airport before. That's the whole point of traveling.

31:32 - John
Somebody made a joke once. We were late to a meeting inside of an airport. And when we got in, they go, oh, we know what happened. And I was like, yeah, sorry, we're late. And they said, no, you wore your vest. You probably got stopped 10 times. Because everybody wants to ask the guy with the vest on, how do I get to my gate? Where is this thing? How do I get the food? The bathroom, right? And it's true. It's true. Wayfinding is important.

31:54 - Andy
Yeah, that would be a fun thing to do is wear that vest if you wanted to create some good YouTube. So now for you, how has that changed your experience as a traveler?

32:11 - John
Has it changed? Oh, I'm way more critical now. Way more critical. I think And it's a delicate balance. You know, you want to you want to cater to a family, you want to cater to the business traveler, you have to you have to meet everybody's expectations. And that's that's difficult. So there's got to be a space for everybody. And I think newer airports are doing a really good job of that. But the retrofitting of things is is incredibly painful. One of the things that's starting to get rectified, right, because terminals are basically on like a 25 your loop before they start to do renovations or knock them down and start over again. If you look at JFK's Terminal 8, we just went through a huge renovation of that. And one of its most crippling things was that it was built right before 9-11. And so it was not designed to house the required TSA security lanes that were then implemented a year and a half later. And so there's this huge bottleneck. And if you go through, it's stuck and like everybody's putting their shoes and their belt back on. And it's like a really clumsy and awkward entry into the terminal. And we had to try and rectify that. So, you know, it's just nature of the thing, how things progress, I think, you know, and then being able to adapt readily to it.

33:33 - Andy
What are the latest trends? I mean, that was 9-11 was a big one. Obviously, it seems like COVID probably had some What are the other trends that are going on right now that are impacting airport design?

33:47 - John
I would say the ride sharing is a big deal. A lot of people are starting to, you know, have captured that problem and fixed it internally. I would also say that public access to the terminals, right? Being able to take public transport is a big push now. So air trains and things like that are becoming pretty prevalent. And and highly considered especially in master planning even if they don't exist at the airport now Yeah, I think what about cell phones and just mobile usage.

34:19 - Andy
I mean, that's You know, like for example look watching the old movie not even old movies But like, you know old 10 or 15 years old and they they have tickets, you know But is it mobile impacted?

34:31 - John
I mean even just like having plugins is probably yeah I mean power is like one of the biggest considerations every hold room that you go into now, it's got a plug at every seat, essentially. Or if they're designing it, they want one at every seat. So access to power is a big deal. And believe it or not, that puts some pretty substantial draw on older infrastructure. That wasn't necessarily something that people 20 years ago were thinking about, and now it's a big deal.

35:00 - Andy
Yeah, I mean, you go to any lounge, well, what do you call it when you're waiting for the, is that the lounge? That's not the lounge.

35:08 - John
That's the hold room where you're waiting for the plane.

35:11 - Andy
Um, so yeah, that's, that's, you got everybody plugged in there. And so that, yeah, it probably has a big draw.

35:19 - John
Um, I would say the automation of some tasks, right. Uh, baggage handling is sort of like a big deal. Uh, some, some airports now have sort of automated bag drop. So, you know, you go, you weigh it yourself, you put it in the machine, it does a security scanning, it gets dropped off all without having, you know, a porter there. There is no no human interaction. It's all, you know, automated. Even even some security is just facial scans. Now you don't show a ticket, you don't scan anything, no passport, no ID, you just show up, they take a photo and you walk through. And that that progression, I think is going to start to buy back some room that has to see us aliens in the past. I think that's gonna start to slim down a bit.

36:06 - Andy
Maybe speed up some things, hopefully, too, possibly. But that's sort of weird when you go in and you're like, I feel like I need to talk to a human, but we get trained on those things. I mean, we get it at the grocery store, so I guess we can do it at the airport, too, right?

36:22 - John
Yeah, scan your own groceries, right?

36:25 - Andy
So what moment did you have at an airport that you said, maybe it was your design or somebody else's, but you're like, you know what, this is a good moment, this is a good experience right here, a good design.

36:41 - John
So I guess most recently, we had the pleasure of working with Cathay Pacific. They're number three airline in the world, very high quality, known for their customer service, exceptional customer service. Up until the visited their lounge in Heathrow in London. My experience with lounges has always been, I would say extravagance, right? Like it's sort of a correlation between, you know, oh, I got in through the, past the velvet rope kind of thing, right? And there's like lots of food and there's just excess in a lot of ways. And whether that be like super plush chairs or, you know, more room, or big showers or whatever, it's typically excess. When I walked into the Cathay Lounge, I found it kind of refreshing. The design is very simple. And when I say simple, I don't mean that there isn't detail to it, because there absolutely is. It's the ceilings are brought down lower. It has much more of a residential feel. As opposed to walking into like a lavish club, it feels like you're walking into a living room, like a very beautifully appointed living room. And that difference was not something that I had experienced before. And I really loved the way that they had thought about that. So I would say that was like a kind of an aha moment for me and to see the way that things could be treated and sort of opposite end of the spectrum.

38:22 - Andy
quote nice or what is luxurious it doesn't yeah necessarily mean you know like the plush and the big and the volume it could actually mean you know a quaint type intimate familiar well detailed you know like that kind of thing is equally as difficult to pull off I would say yeah which which makes sense if you if you think about people will just want to be comfortable they want to be but then And also what's cool about going to the airport is seeing, I mean, one of the things I love is seeing all the huge volumes. I do like seeing the huge volumes as I'm walking through the terminal part or the concourse part and just seeing like these big spans. And I'm a structural engineer, so I love seeing that. But then to think, okay, I could go into these other areas and relax and have a quaint feel. And it's kind of neat to think about. About that contrast.

39:18 - John
Yeah, and I think that goes to brand identity, right? Once you find something that you like, you're going to start to be loyal to it because it meets your expectations, whatever your individual expectations are. And so an airline can be like super specific or an airline can try and be more general and appeal to more people. And I think that's what kind of makes each of them different and interesting in their own way.

39:44 - Andy
So if you, thinking about maybe somebody coming up into this career, you know, you 15 years ago or 10 years ago, what would, they're considering going into the aviation field, architecture, what are some things that they should know about or what would you tell them?

40:04 - John
Get in the field as soon as humanly possible. So like, if you get put on a project, demand that you go out to the site with whoever's going out there you can experience it. Not only is the community small, right? Like the people who work on airports kind of know each other, right? There's only a handful of them, especially regionally, right? You're going to be in a limited pool and you all have to work together and you all have to collaborate and your jobs are undoubtedly going to be overlapping one another in some way, right? If I'm on a floor and I've got to do plumbing work in the slab below, there's somebody in that room below me and I bet you they're doing work at the same time. And so you're going to have to kind of communicate that and and work through things. It's also going to give you insight into the inner workings of the systems that are in play in the airport. Like a BHS system is, you know, one of the most complex things you'll ever see. But I can't describe it to you. You have to like be in the room and see all of these like baggage belts just grinding and going and to see how intricate that is and how how much it space and time and thought and coordination it takes inside of that airport.

41:12 - Andy
Now, how would you do that? I mean, practical advice, I mean, this is somebody who's young and they're, you know, nervous about asking people for help, so how do you do that? Like, hey, can I go out, just gotta just do it? Like, how do you do that?

41:28 - John
I mean, I'm under the assumption that this person is already getting put on a job that isn't an And if they are, I think it's important that all the senior folks at a firm understand the importance of getting younger folks into the field. That's where I feel most of the knowledge is going to come from And I would say to the younger kids, if they're not letting you go in the field, you're at the wrong firm. It's such a critical piece of educational development. If somebody tells you, no, you You can't go to the field. That's that's insane to me. OK, I cannot comprehend. How can you draw something if you don't know what it looks like, Like that doesn't make sense.

42:11 - Andy
So get out there, look at it. You could just ask, I guess. Like, hey, can I go look at this stuff or. Tag along. I mean, what's the worst thing I could tell you? Say no.

42:21 - John
Ask a thousand questions, you know, like they're going to talk about things, you know, ask what is this thing? What is that? Because there's there's stuff in the ceiling that you'd never know what they are. Um, you know, ask about the systems, how operations work, even just, you know, how, how do things in the airport work? You know, Oh, if somebody goes through security, how, you know, what are the processes associated there? Hey, where did the employees go? Do they go through the same security or a different security? You know, like all of these things, um, add to your base knowledge and help you inform design that you might have to do later.

42:53 - Andy
And I mean, this is applicable even if you're not in aviation, I mean, You know, there's other people, I mean, this is AEC, by the way, so other architects, engineers, and contractors. So, I mean, I think the larger question here, or larger lesson here is ask questions, learn. I mean, you have to lower your inhibitions to basically have you humble yourself, right, and just do it. And that's me thinking back to my early career, I wish I would have done that more, right, instead of just you know, like we talked about on the last podcast episode of spinning our wheels. But yeah, that's great advice, John. And just looking at what's in the field, comparing that, and then the visual of that. I mean, some architects, I mean, you guys are pretty visual in nature. So having that visual of, okay, that didn't work. And next time, I'm not going to do that, what JohnA did. Somebody else did, right? Like, okay. And so the company name Mancini, it's Mancini Duffy or just Mancini?

44:07 - John
Mancini Duffy, but a lot of people just refer to us as Mancini.

44:10 - Andy
Sorry, Duffy.

44:12 - John
Sorry, Duffy.

44:14 - Andy
So what are you excited about in terms of Mancini Duffy in terms of aviation or or in general, looking ahead?

44:26 - John
So when I started at Mancini, we were just a New York office and we were about 45 people. We are now about 185 people and we have seven offices. So I am really, truly excited about the growth that we've had. But most importantly, the fact that our growth has been paired with like a really great culture. You know, we've always kind of been uh, younger leaning, um, because we find that the younger folks tend to be more excited. And so we, we like to support that with, with some senior folks who are engaged and really interested in mentorship. Uh, and we find that we do like to develop people in house and kind of keep them. Uh, so our, our retention rate is pretty high. Um, and I'm just excited to see where we can continue to grow to, um, from an aviation perspective, obviously the more offices that we, we open, the more reach that we have and, and I'm excited to start doing work in other other jurisdictions You know beyond the eastern seaboard. Yeah, so mostly the your work has your work personally has been on the eastern for the most part we've done a number of projects in the Midwest and and out west but But the bulk of our work in the last 10 years has been on the East Coast We have offices one in New York to in New Jersey to in Florida one in Phoenix and one in Seattle So we now have a pretty good reach. We've got some work out at SeaTac right now, which I'm going to go see next week. So I'm excited about that.

45:56 - Andy
And what is that, SeaTac?

45:58 - John
That's Seattle-Tacoma Airport.

46:00 - Andy
Oh, got it. Well, that'd be a fun place to go. It seemed like Seattle's pretty happy right now, right?

46:08 - John
Maybe I'll get to see the aftermath of the parade.

46:13 - Andy
Looks like they don't. Hopefully they cleaned up a little bit after that. Well, that's awesome. How about global? Are you guys going to go into the global market at all or staying in the US?

46:24 - John
We've actually already done some work in Hong Kong with some of our other airline partners. We would love to continue that. We work with a number of international airlines. We love working with Lufthansa, so hopefully we get to do some work in Europe with them. Yeah, international, national, do it all.

46:47 - Andy
Anybody that wants aviation work done, call Manson.

46:52 - John
Give us a call.

46:53 - Andy
Call Don.

46:55 - Andy
Now, do you do the quotes or is that somebody else that does it?

46:58 - John
Yeah, no, I write all of our proposals having to do with aviation. Depending on the size and scope of it, one of our other project managers may write it together, but I always get the last look as it goes out the door.

47:11 - Andy
Okay, so call you if we got something.

47:13 - John
Call me work. I'll pick up. I promise.

47:16 - Andy
Um, so I want to go back to speaking of humility, cause I want to go back. I'm, I'm mixed up about my words and frankly, I don't, I don't really know much of, I always get these mixed up terminal in the concourse. So help me help me with those words a little bit.

47:31 - John
Um, yeah, sure. So, um, there's, there's airport, right. And that's like the general code for that would be associated with the runway. All right. Well, I guess it's the easiest way to say it. Then you have the terminal which is an individual discrete building typically May be connected to others, but could be independent And then you have something called a concourse and that's when they have wings or segments that come off of that terminal Are you familiar with with stuff in New York?

48:01 - Andy
I'm trying to figure out like a good example into I've been to one of their one or two of those airports the one that you can say I guess I don't know which one Maybe it was LaGuardia?

48:12 - John
Yeah, yeah. All right, so LaGuardia's got, it's basically kind of set up in like an arc, and they've got individual terminals, and then each one of those terminals has concourses that come off of them. So yeah, it's set up like nodes, basically.

48:27 - Andy
Yeah, I guess I should know better, you know? I'm an engineer, I should like, I just follow, like, go to, I guess concourse C or concourse D, that's the concourse that is coming off of the term the main terminal yeah and then the main thing they typically refer to is the head house okay got it so when you get to the airport you're at the head house I guess yeah okay so hey we've learned a little bit what else about airports should we know about that just generally speaking pretty broad question um I mean like you're you know like my producer she's Madeline She's 17, so what does she need to know about airports?

49:10 - John
Always fly with the anchor tenant out of an airline, or out of an airport, rather.

49:16 - John
Anchor tenant, I mean.

49:17 - John
Yeah, so, like, I live in New Jersey, and it's, United is the anchor tenant at Newark. They're like the big airline there, so you wanna fly United because the anchor tenant always gets priority when it comes to getting flights slid into the, into the order, the flight order.

49:36 - Andy
Like earlier when I was telling you like, I mean, Southwest, I'm in the Southeast and I'm Southwest, that would be a no-no basically, right?

49:43 - John
I mean, as long as it's not one of their hubs, you know, or where they're the anchor tenant, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I'd try to find a flight with the anchor tenant if you can.

49:51 - Andy
And that's because they're just not going to have very good flights or they're not going to have...

49:56 - John
They typically get priority in the flight order. So like everything is timed obviously, but right, but if you, if like a flight's going to happen delayed because something happened, if you're not the anchor tenant, you're probably getting bumped before the anchor tenant.

50:09 - Andy
Got it. There you go. Little advantage.

50:12 - John
Little advantage. Good tip.

50:16 - Andy
Any other quick tips for airline travel?

50:20 - John
Wear comfortable shoes that are easy to tie.

50:26 - Andy
It's funny. We were talking about that. Dichotomy I guess right you've got the comfortable travelers like in sweatpants and trucks and then you got like the the finance bros and like you know suits and shoes which I'm kind of in the middle I'm an engineer so I just wear like a polo and you know some cool slacks and there you go I'm in the middle with you so I'm just like yeah y'all do your y'all do your thing I'm not going to show up in sweatpants and I'm probably not going to wear a suit either.

51:02 - John
No, I'm not the one with the sleeping mask and the neck pillow. And yeah, that's not me either.

51:09 - Andy
Well, JohnA, I want to ask you too, because this is the Enhanced Podcast and really a lot of this is building up to this because it's great to do airports and airline work. But what we really want to know is, you know, how are you, JohnA Anthol and also How are you guys enhancing the world around us? Are you just doing airline work? Are you making the world a better place? It sounds a little bit, it could sound a little bit cheesy, but to me, this is what I get value in. This is what inspires me. So how are you guys enhancing the world around you?

51:47 - John
So I think architecture is in a unique position that whatever we make is gonna be experienced by people, right? It's not something hidden. To be forgotten about, at least not in the immediate, right? Somebody's going to be using it. And whoever that person is, we have a chance to make their life either easier or better, you know, on a scale, of course. But, you know, if I put the break room in a nice spot that has a window that looks out, you know, that he can watch the airplanes take off from a comfortable position, I've made his day just a little bit more pleasant, right? Like, just because I thought about that instead of just putting him in the back room with no windows and no view. So I think it's about trying to be really thoughtful about the people that we're designing for. And whether it be a small impact or a large impact, whether they notice it or not, we as architects have a duty to attempt to make things brighter for people that are going to use the spaces.

52:47 - Andy
Man, that's well put. I mean, sounds like a good vision for what you do every day. And I think we can now appreciate air travel a little better because of this conversation today. It sounds really exciting. I think it's going to impact really not just people in the airline industry, but it's interesting because maybe people that don't do the airline work, maybe there's an aspect they can learn from that applies to residential or commercial traditional architecture or construction, you know. So, those are some of the things I think we can learn from today. So, pretty fun talk today. Was there anything else you wanted to bring up that maybe I forgot to mention or you wanted to hit on?

53:40 - John
No, I don't think so. But, you know, if you're interested in aviation architecture, you know, and you just want to even just talk, you can always reach out to us. We'd be more than happy to discuss. But Mancini is not just aviation. You know, we do pretty much everything. We're a hundred year old firm. Everything from, you know, towers to, you know, restaurant branding and schools even. So, you know, we're across the board, always just interesting people looking to make things better.

54:14 - Andy
A little bit of everything. So, and how do people reach out to you if they want to do one of those type of projects.

54:23 - John
So you can go right on to our website. There's links to the marketing department and everything will get to me. Just make sure you say aviation and it'll head my way.

54:31 - Andy
Thanks, John. It was a pleasure to have you on today.

54:34 - John
You too, Andy. Thank you.

54:36 - Madeline
Hey, everybody.

54:37 - Madeline
Thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhance.

54:40 - Madeline
And please leave a like, a subscribe, or a follow, and we'll