Today we have Hannah Hackathorn and Ben Ayers and they are architects with Mancini Duffy in Phoenix, Arizona and they have their own studio there. So we had a fun episode with them uh just talking about how they enhance the world around them, what they're doing with uh their company and just all that kind of good stuff. So what did you, what really drew you into this episode today? think at the beginning part of it, I was like, okay, we're talking about architecture and all this stuff, which obviously that's what they do, so that's important. It's more of the how-to. But when we kind of got into the why of why they do what they do, and then that's when I was like, okay. uh But sincerity, right? So I've always heard from mom that people don't care what you know until they know that you care. People don't care what you do until they know that you care about what you do is something that I kind of would summarize this into for the intro is that if people don't sense that you care about them or they care about the way you work and how you do your job efficiently, they're not going to want you to work for them or do stuff for them um just because they don't want somebody that doesn't want to do their job to do the job. What about you? What'd you find? Yeah, I mean, that definitely struck a nerve and really just, I've got a few notes here on my notepad. I learned a lot from them about how the personality, the behavior that you need to have and the personality you need to have when you're leading others and when you're working with clients and customers, which is no ego. That was the thing that really. hit me the hardest. I mean, and especially in this industry, because we're talking about architects, we're talking about engineers, we're talking about contractors, and we're known, I mean, capital E engineer, capital A architect, we're known to provide our opinion, we're known for that type of thing. So, to say no ego is really, that strikes a nerve. and it's hard to do, and it's a good reminder. We all, I think we know that for the most part. but it's a good reminder and I really appreciated them. And it seems like they really walk the talk on that. feel like it would be easy to have an ego as an architect or an engineer because you know what you're doing. You have all these calculations and all these things you have to know how to do in order to do it and uh provide the product that you provide. And if you don't know how to do it, but then not having ego, like you said, that's important and that's what attracts people to provide business to. So those are some of the things I learned and we learned about so much more we talked about different aspects of You know what what they're doing with Mancini Duffy and the innovation Not to mention some of the cool projects are working on and and just just a fun episode with the two of them name is Madeline Richardson and this is the Enhanced It's fine, Kevin. And this is the host. I've been doing this two years. We've been doing the Enhance podcast for about two years. This is Andy Richardson, the host of the podcast. He's been an engineer for a long time. Let's jump to the intro. Welcome to AAC podcast. We learned the the why behind C-E-C professionals so that you can learn your why. Well hey Ben, hey Hannah, welcome to the Enhance Podcast today. Thank you for having us. Definitely. glad to have both of you on. So I like to start out just for fun to ask something to get your brain working. So, and by the way, these questions may or may not be on the list, but I'll ask Ben first. So Ben, you're an architect. what is, if you know, unlimited budget, what's something that you would design for the Phoenix community? you as an architect. Wow, good question. I've never even pondered the idea of an unlimited budget, so that's a big question for me to think about. think, you know, um the one of the things that I have seen over and over over the years here, there's kind of this kind of one big idea, Andy, that I can remember being in school and there were projects that looked at this, but it was this idea of taking a huge area of Phoenix and just putting a huge amount of shade. that and I've seen that kind of idea come yeah it's come over and over again and I wouldn't do the whole city by any stretch of the imagination to know but what I would say the reason I bring that up is it's funny right now I just we're doing another kind of big study project right now for Arizona State University and um The big idea, again, this has kind of been happening over and over again, was take the whole site and do a huge canopy over the whole thing and shade and all the buildings kind of live, parking lives, everything lives under the shade. And so, I don't know, I'd love to do, and it never really happens in the way that you think it is, but I remember, you know, When I was in school, I remember Jack DiBartolo, which is a very well-known architect here in the valley, had a concept for this huge park in downtown Phoenix. The whole thing had this shape canopy. And so, anyway, I do something like that. I've never been to Arizona. I've never been to Phoenix. I'm in the southeast. But we're known for our heat down here, but I'm guessing it's pretty hot there. Is that the main issue? Yeah, definitely. So I spent a lot of years in South Florida and I'll tell you right now, ah this is far better than what you put up with. The humidity is just, it's terrible. It is dry, but it does get, if you ever opened up the oven, know, the joke is Andy, when you open up the oven, that heat that comes out when you're, you know, 400 degrees oven, that's exactly what it feels like when you go outside in the middle of summer. Okay, so it's funny because they always talk about the humidity here and I've got one of my kids, just picks on us, he's like, you know, stop talking about the humidity. But it's funny. uh that's an interesting take. So thanks for sharing that, Ben. So Hannah, we'll give you a stab at the same question. You get the advantage of a couple minutes of thinking through this. The personal side, I would have loved to create an animal sanctuary. I think if money was no object, I would love to have my own rescue organization where I can rescue all kinds of animals and have a huge property and take care of them. That's my, if I won lotto and I don't have to work for a living, that probably will be the case. But selfishly, so I grew up in metropolitan city, I grew up in Seoul and then I moved to America at the age of 13 and I've lived in New York for a bulk of my life and bulk of my careers back in East Coast. So I think selfishly if I could, I would create a driving free city where I don't ever have to drive to anywhere. It's walkability. You have your restaurants and stores and things within your vicinity where you can walk. I think that selfish side of me, the convenience side of living in New York City that I miss so much having moved here and having to drive to go everywhere. Anywhere. Anywhere. So it would be driving less car free city. Car free Phoenix. So Phoenix is a very, you have to drive a car pretty much. yeah. yeah, like I have to get a carton of milk. I gotta drive to the stores. I miss the walk. Yeah, there are pockets that are walkable, uh but not a lot. It is very much a driving culture. It's funny, just having a chat with a young guy that might be coming to our office to work here that he's from New York, he's living in New York City. And he's freaking out about one, he's like, can actually get a one bedroom apartment. He was excited about that. But then he was a... Can I get away with not having a car? Can I get a motorcycle? And we're like, no, no, you need a mean you can, but... that choice. Yeah, then the heat or the rain. guess is there a rainy season too or? Yeah, we're supposed to. Yeah, we have a monsoon, yeah. Theoretically. Yes, when it happens it does pour, but... Yeah, it's violent rain when we get it, but it's much less frequent than it used to be. Awesome. But I guess Seoul was more of a walking community. Bye! Yes, I mean, I just, all my life I've lived in a city of some sort. growing up it was just, you walked everywhere. You go to a store, you go to your neighbor's house, your friend's house, it's all walkable. Or there's a public transportation that can take you any places. And that's very similar in New York as well. It was actually easier to walk to places and sometimes faster than taking a taxi, I mean you rely on Subway. So when I first moved out to the Valley area five years ago, the idea of having to drive everywhere was a bit daunting. And I didn't get my driver license until in my mid-30s. So for me, I still consider myself as a uh younger driver, young drivers who's still learning the ways and I don't like it. I hate driving and Ben knows that because I'm making drive everywhere. Okay. uh Well, quick connection point, Hannah. uh I don't know if you knew this. Jessica, the podcast manager, she's from, not from there, but she's currently in Korea, South Korea. So, but uh she had, that's where, uh that's where she's living now. So I just thought it was a fun connection point. But yeah, so, and Really one of the big reasons that I think we want one of the big things we want to talk about today I think is uh This Phoenix studio or office that you guys are both co-directing um So congratulations on that and is that and is that fairly new news that this is? Almost two years. so relatively new. ah It kind of happened very fast and furious. Ben and I, we used to work together in another large architectural company based in Phoenix. We were two studio directors there. ah And we really got a lot of opportunity to collaborate with each other. His team was working on my project, vice versa. So we got to kind of learn more about each other, our leadership styles. in the perfect ideal world if we could have our own office that we're running, what would that be like? ah So a lot of brainstorming, ideating, maybe commiserating, all of the above. ah And that led to one day I received a call from friend of mine who happened to be a recruiter and he was working with Mancini to help place a person in Seattle office. And that just kind of led to questions about, you know, what is Mancini doing? um I've actually had a lot of history back with Mancini. This is actually my third time back. I worked Mancini as an intern when I was in college in New York City. I worked there a little over 13 years ago when I was pregnant with my child, who's now 13. So when I've kind of heard about all the different things that Mancini is doing with a new leadership under Christian Giordano, who I've known, his wife and I went to school together. So there's all this weird mix of connection and synergy. And then when I just kind of through, we pitched the idea or we quickly threw the ideas at wall, would Christian ever consider opening an office in Phoenix? It's happening market, a lot moving here. ah And that kind of led to reconnecting with Christian, introducing Ben, and rest was a history. Everything just moved in. rapid speed from there. I think from the initial conversation to us actually putting ink to paper was a little over a month maybe if that. so we've really never had a chance to look back and say, whoa, are we doing the right thing? It just was like, we gotta go. This is an opportunity we can say no to. And I've kind of cornered Ben into coming on this journey with me, but. Yes, it's been pretty wild. Awesome. What's your take on that, Ben? Starting up this new studio in Phoenix under Mancini Duffy. I guess Duffy kind of gets the boot. uh there, just not as... Well, no, everything... You know, we were not actively looking at anything, and I think that what she says commiserating, a lot of it was us complaining back and forth. We got to work together for a while. I've been here in the Valley my whole career, for the most part. I had one year... What do you call it, Hannah? Oh, sabbatical. I a year sabbatical in Colorado. But I've been here all of my career, and I've kind of been at a few different firms. And so the last one that we working at is... pretty significant firm and so for me that experience completely changed the trajectory of my career frankly. um Where I saw myself going before that was different from where that landed and so I have to be grateful for that experience because it taught me that I could do this. um And so then I think one of the things that we, there are certain things from leadership in that role that we were able to start to see that worked really well and some things that didn't. And so one of those was this idea of kind of co-leadership. And so when Hannah got that call and that evening when she called me, I remember it very, very well because she called and said, hey, know, all the whining we've been doing, I got a real opportunity here, but I don't want to do it by myself. And what do you think? And of course, I turned around and said I need to ask my wife first. So, you we talked about that and then very quickly it happened, obviously. So it was really exciting. It was something that we felt that we worked together really, really well. We had a kind of uh strong alignment of where we wanted to go and what we wanted to do. And so, yeah, it was kind of one of those things that you can't say no to, as she said. Yeah, awesome. And what is your current uh profile or makeup of your studio currently? it the two of you? You have a team? Yeah, we have a team. uh So we were a team of six. And we were able to kind of jump in very, very quickly and build that out because of some projects that came with us that were unanticipated. So uh that allowed us to kind of grow really quickly. our attitude on that was, well, one, get bodies in here that could help us deliver the work. So that was the primary. But secondary to that, too, was we've had this attitude of, we get a really strong core team that has every aspect of a team. And so we could take on any type of project if we had every role covered. And so, yeah, I'll let you chime in on that one too, Hannah, but that was an attitude. So the makeup of it, I'll let her talk a little bit about. Yeah, I mean, we anticipate it's starting kind of slow. And as Ben said, the client who we're really fortunate, they wanted to work with us that did expedite our growth substantially. But the one of the beautiful thing even from going into joining Mancini and opening an office in Phoenix, we knew that we could tap into all the amazing talent and resource across all our other offices. And that has been true case of when we first opened and that's still the case when, you know, even two years in, there's a lot of level of collaboration and sharing the resources and sharing the talent to position ourselves to win and to really be able to service our client to our fullest ability. So, you know, and I think it also keeps our team a lot more engaged and exciting because they're not only getting an opportunity to work on projects that's locally based here, but they're also getting some unique opportunities located in East Coast or other locations that they may not necessarily been exposed to. So it's been really exciting to see not only us, but our team able to share that knowledge and experience across. Yeah, yeah, it seems like you have the best of both worlds you you are it's like you're starting a new business and a sense like an entrepreneur But at the same time you have this resource. So yeah, if you were to uh Maybe tell somebody at Mancini so I'll go with the mancini too, but but if you were to talk to somebody there or For example, maybe a colleague, you know, because we have our we have AEC architects, engineers and contractors. you know, what was your decision matrix for that in terms of, hey, because I'm sure that crossed your mind. Let's just start up our own deal. Or. yeah. you know, could just be the Hanna show or the Vint show. That would have been an option. uh Or you could stay where you are. Anyway, there's a litany of options, but you chose this, which is to plug into a bigger company. So what was your decision process for that? I think it was probably a little bit easier for me because I had history with Mancini. Although the Mancini has gone through a lot of changes even from the time that I used to work there as an intern and the time that now we join as one of the office leader. uh I think what really drew me to Mancini again is there's a really combination of the history rich legacy We're a hundred plus years old firm. There's a very enriched history about who we are, how the firm was created. But there was also the sense of new innovation and trying to be forefront in technology and constantly paving the way and trying new ways to improve our design process and the way that we collaborate with our clients, our partners and extended partners. I think to me that was really the one part and having also met with the rest of the leadership, the sense of camaraderie and willingness to really support and uplift each other. That was really awakening moment where I'm like this is the exact type of culture and the brand that I want to be part of it again. you Awesome. Well, that's a good answer. So Ben, what do you think? Is telling the truth there? Absolutely, tell them the Coming here for me was something that obviously she had the familiarity, she had the history. is a little bit new uh to kind of see a firm like Mancini. It was different, but you nailed it on the head earlier, Andy, with what you said. You know, in our commiserating, ah we did, obviously there were conversations about doing our own thing uh without a doubt. And that would have been something that we talked about, but when you have an operating like this that takes those things that are on the risky side of the ad equation and takes those away, it made it very, very easy decision in some ways. um In other ways it was harder too. I mean I think where we were before was a uh very significant firm, um the largest design firm in the world. Everyone will know what that is I think at this point. I'm going in right now. you know, lot of resources, a lot of things there that were really good. And so we had this, you know, situation kind of presented to us. So it's very, very different in the sense of that. but, you know, eh as I started to get to know Christian, the leadership at the firm, see what they've been doing, the attitude they have, as Hannah said, this one of the things that was really appealing to me was this kind of attitude of being the, tip of the spear when it comes to technology and integration in our process and looking to the future. How do we lead that? We want to be in front of this. We develop our own technology. have our own coders and software engineers on staff that build things. We build apps. We utilize AI. um I've never seen that in the way that Mancini does it anywhere else. So that attitude with this kind of true You know, I had talked in the past a lot about being at a firm that was entrepreneurial, Andy. I had no idea what I was talking about. This like true entrepreneurial attitude where, you know, Hannah and I have been given this opportunity and the leadership has basically said, tell us what you'd want to do, what's your plan here? Okay, that's great. We love that. How can we support you? What do you need? That's from day one, what we've had. uh How many studios do they have currently at Mancini? Six, six, six nationally. Okay, thanks. still relatively small farm, Andy. mean, if you compare us to the world's largest, you know, some other offices where Just a single office, may have five, six hundred people. Nationally, we're, I think, reaching now about 160. Yeah. Or maybe we're now at 180. We did go through a pretty large growth this year. So if you think about that across six offices across North America, we're a pretty small team in comparison. But I think that also allow us to be a little nimble. and able to accommodate our clients and pivot things slightly different ways to be able to accommodate our clients. Okay, yeah, and I was just getting a sense of that because you've mentioned both of you mentioned innovation and I mean you mentioned AI as one example what what is something that's working really well or what is something that has has made an impact from an innovation standpoint at your local studio maybe or at the the bigger Well, I can tell you what I'm really excited about because we've both been exposed to this and it's it's fairly well, it's still iterative. It's still going through processes. But sorry, I hand I want to talk about this. So Mika, which stands for I'm going to completely Yeah, I'm going to that the man Cini information and knowledge Assistant. No, I don't know if that's right. They might be wrong. Anyway, Mika has kind of become this thing that I would say it's more like Apple, know, iPhone, iWatch, Mika. And so Mika was, I think initially, and again, I'm probably gonna make this all up on my own and all the people back in New York will kill me later, but what I saw this was, was this idea of Mika becoming kind of our version of taking some of these things that you see in the world from, you know, AR. VR, AI stuff, know, all of this and much smarter people doing things with it. So anyway, the point of that Andy is so it's a good example of this because I just started playing with it myself to learn it. We utilize like every firm in the world it feels like right now some form or different types of rendering engines that could help us from an AI front. They're just incredibly fast. It's crazy how you can iterate and get ideas out on the table. The issue that everyone has is the control of what that is. And so one of the tools that Mika has been developing is what I call a prompt engineer. And it's a way to have a lot more control into what the graphic output could be. So it's a very cool software that was, again, just internal, it's just ours. um But we go through and I have a young guy in our New York office that's been helping me and he learned it in a day and has been out putting stuff and now he's completely in love with it. He thinks it's the best thing he's ever worked with. And so, you know, something like that. Andy, I'm very, very excited about it. And that, by the way, the MECA, it's kind of all over the place. I swear every week we get a new... We were in our business development national meeting talking through things and a couple of people like, well, we've created this new dashboard that we use Mika to do this and that. Now, if you're interested in finding a consultant that we've worked with in Montana, here's a list of every consultant that we've worked with that has licensure there and all this and this and it's all automated. can just do that. There's new dashboards of new information that's all being enabled through Mika and AI and all of these things. And again, it's all our own people that are kind of seeing, you know, people will recognize a problem and ask them, hey guys, what do think about this? Can we figure out a way to do this better or come up with this or collate this information in this way? And they just go and do really smart things that's over my head. It's just amazing. So it's sort of like your mancini information and knowledge assistant. So it's like your internal assistant to help do things, really, simple way of saying it, I guess. Yeah, and I'm again, I probably am saying that wrong. Yeah uh But this rendering thing, what's the significance of that with your business? yes. Go ahead, I mean, if you think about, and the whole idea is also if you think about how we communicate with our clients and also with our consultants as well, right? Sometimes the picture does a lot more than if you just write things or, you know, and also we're dealing with a client, they may not necessarily know how to read a drawing. And I think there is definitely some fashion in our industry, the way that we collaborate with our client that feels a little bit antiquated and a little bit broken. And it's not the 3D visualizations, anything that's new, but how do we promote that level of collaboration and use the technology to really enable the quality of collaboration, right? And the speed. Yeah, and the speed. And the speed is really the result of using these technology to be able to collaborate. So the clients actually, when they're making the decision, they're able to see and understand exactly what they're basing their decisions on. ah People talk about, well, AI is going to take over our profession. No, we are still prompting in terms of the design concept and the overall, controlling the overall look and feel and the design intent behind it. It just happened to project or create a lot of output in a speed time. the method that we used to do and having to model everything. Because sometimes you have to tease a couple of different ideas and present in front of the client for them to react to, then give us a feedback and then we can refine that further. So I do think that it's much more clear collaboration and clear communication with our clients. I think that's really the beauty of it. to illustrate a little bit to you Andy, could give you, so that the young man I was just telling you about earlier. When I did things and we're doing kind of this fun study, it is all the fun things from school that everyone from a design standpoint loves to do. That's really what we've been doing. And so if you kind of look back to those days, and I would think about when I used to do this, right? So you're putting a context analysis diagram together and you're just basically snipping out, you know, taking a Google map or a topo or whatever, right? Something that's a static image and you're kind of, you mark over the top and you put an illustrator and you're doing all these cool arrows. and you know whatever. And it can look beautiful, it's amazing, but there's a time to that that kind of takes a bit. So when he took this, you know, we said we needed kind of these three context diagrams that looked from a level pretty high up that's looking at all of downtown Phoenix and extending out and then slowly zooming into our site. And so he did that and he took a very, very simple 3D massing of the downtown took And I can't even talk to you exactly how it done, Andy, because I don't know. But the point is that the output of this was instead of this kind 2D flat contextual analysis diagram that we've all seen and done, it's now this kind of axonometric got, you know, it's 3D, but it's all kind of got the stylistic feel to the whole thing. And it's all carried out through all levels of that diagram. And when the client sees that and says, how did you do that? know, like, so, and that's the, that's what I'm saying. Like, and that was done very, very fast. And so he was able to kind of help with that. And then I give him, you know, very simple ideas and we're doing very simple massing diagrams to look at what ideas could be for the actual architecture and the design. We're not intended to figure this out right now. This is all really, really, really early conversations, but then you can take that and I wish I could show you the output. Absolutely beautiful renderings that show the experience of what it is like to be in the middle of this kind of small campus. And again, done in hours. All of this was done in hours. Whereas before, remember having 12 computers lined up to do all the renderings overnight because I'm slaved out all of these computers to do that. And no, this is instantaneous through just going online. It's immediate. It's absolutely incredible. Yeah, I mean the the adage of fast cheap or good is really being challenged right now with this technologies that we're seeing. uh And it sounds like Mika is one that really is helping you guys. with innovation, everybody wants to be innovative. I mean, you mentioned that earlier that we thought we were entrepreneurial, we thought we were innovative, but maybe not as much as we thought. Because I think you have to have a culture that supports that. that's a little bit I've learned about innovation. So what is it about this current company and what you're doing in your studio that allows for that? I think that energy almost comes from top down and bottom up. I mean, we've got president who is constantly looking to be better and try something new and not afraid to fail and learn from it and move on. He himself is showing us by example and also sharing what he's learning, an article he may have read, and then he's sharing with the rest of the team. And with that mindset, we have all this amazing young talent who's coming into our company and sharing their ideas. So I think the one part is that everybody has a voice here. ah There is no really that sense of hierarchy where just because you're a young professional who's just coming into our industry that you don't have any saying, you don't have any voice. think culturally we've kind of allowed for people to be able to share their ideas and have the sense of the security to speak their minds. And through that, there's so many unique opportunities and these programs have been mentioned, whether it's MECA or Tool Belt, which is another on program that we use quite often, really blossom from there. I think that's a really hard culture to find, know, place where everybody feels safe and secure to be able to speak their mind and share their ideas and be welcomed by that. I think that's a really unique environment here. I think you nailed it, Hannah. Having somebody from a leadership standpoint of the firm that believes that, Andy is critical. When we have our leadership strategic meetings that we do, for example, there's a section of that where it's basically them posing and wanting us to talk about, well, what do we want to do next? What's the future of this? So there's an investment of time and money from the perspective of our leadership to look forward and say, OK, what is the future? Where are we going? want to do. And then the other side of that, I think Hannah, nailed it, is when Hannah and I started hiring, that was... A lot of the conversations for us was about making sure we get the hiring right as best as we can. I mean, you're never going to know until they're here and you're working, right? But we had very, very strong ideas of what we were looking for. And one of those things that kind of aligns to this a little bit, Andy, is this idea of ownership. We wanted every single person that comes in the door to feel like they own a piece of this, that they all own it. And that attitude is a bit important. Part of our other story, and it was like even where we are physically in our office right now, for example, this was another one of those crazy little star aligning things on our path of opening this office. You know, we were doing the co-working thing and this office came about as a sublease opportunity that somebody just walked away from. And we moved in here and uh everyone in our office has basically put, I mean, I couldn't even quantify it, but the sweat equity part of this was because we inherited a lot of things, a lot of furniture and things like that, and it wasn't in the best shape. So our attitude has been like, well, let's take it little by little and make it better and come up with ways to do this. What do you call it Hannah? The cheap and cheerful. How do we do it in a way that we get the furniture we want? How do we get it the way that? We're all building things, we're all painting things, we're all demoing walls, we're doing things, but we do it on our own and we're doing it on the cheap. And everybody got involved in that, right? So that sense of ownership, that's something we looked for from the beginning of every single person that we hired. And that sounds like it was a lot of fun too. I mean, I'm sure it helped build some community in that local area. Getting paint on each other and all that fun stuff, right? Yep. Yeah, a lot of ideas flowing and mess. But yeah, it was a lot of fun. But so all these things sound really awesome, but you've got to get some work, right? Which you've done a great job of. I mean, two years ago, you started getting work. And I mean, what is it that you brought to the Phoenix community that they felt the businesses or clients feel like, we want to hire Hannah and Ben and Mancini Duffy to help with this? You want to start a hand or do you me to? Uh, go ahead. I think we're gonna probably say the same thing I know where you're going to go. I think let's we'll do it this way. So I think there's a couple of things Andy for us that you know as part of our again our commiserating and things like that there was certain things that we recognized that was opportunities for us to take advantage of. And so I'll let Hannah talk about a little bit on the side of some of that was, you know, her background is significant in design build. She's done a very large portion of her career working in that. And there were opportunities around design build that kind of presented themselves for us and the way that we both like to work, which is highly collaborative. I'm, you know, in Arizona, we don't have a lot of design build work, Andy, that's never been, you know, I'd say 90 % of the work that we do here has been CIMAR. um And so that's been most of my career. But there is a lot of experience of, you know, one of the things Hannah and I used to do a lot and at the old place was develop kind of like this idea of, you know, I have this schedule that I use a lot. It's called a modified CMAR, which is really what CMAR should be, frankly, at the end of the day, but it hasn't been for quite some time. So there's that part of it. But the other part of it, I think, is we recognized You know, in Phoenix, everybody's a little bit different as far as different markets are concerned, but there were certain things that we saw and we thought we could get in front of. So as an example of that, Andy, was a lot of the clients that we work with are complaining about this idea that Nobody's owning that process. want an architect, you know, when they look for an architect, they want somebody that's going to lead. They want somebody that's not going to just basically throw team members under the bus or, you know, other consultants or the builder or whatever, right? It's somebody own it, take it. And we're very siloed. in a lot of the firms here, the way that we approach things. And so one of the things that Hannah and I, we used to complain a lot about was that idea of everything being siloed. One of my favorite things is she never heard of, you know, until she came to Arizona, she had never heard of a, oh my goodness, deferred submittal. Didn't know what that was. And so, that idea of kind of deferring something that you're not owning that process. And I understand where those things came from, right? We all get where it comes from. But as the designers, as the architects, we should be really owning that and coordinating and have it. And so we saw a lot of clients complain about things like that, Walking into a room, have specific, one client in particular that he was telling me, he's like, walked into this one big space. And I looked up at the ceiling and the lighting, the sprinklers, nothing's coordinated. It's all in the wrong thing, wrong spots. It's messy. He's like, who's fixing this? Who's owning this problem? Well, of course they fixed that room, but there's six of them in a row, Andy, and the other five weren't followed up on and did the exact same thing. And he was livid. And it's just, you know, things like that. And so that siloed approach, this idea of not owning was something that we saw a lot of clients complaining. And what we thought was, well, everybody's trying to make things faster and cheaper from the design perspective, but they're all really complaining about no one owning anything and that it's all not coordinated and well done. What if we try to build it that way where our process was about we own it all or not making every decision with a CYA mentality, right? We're just taking care of the customer and taking care of our clients. So that was one thing for me That was one the things we talked about and then Hannah let you talk about the the design build portion of that too because that was another part Yeah, mean, design bill, I mean, you've kind of took words out of my mouth and a lot of those uh aspects of what bugs me. he certainly heard me complain enough about this diverse middle and the asylum mentality. I think one of the things that perhaps may be resonating with a lot of clients that we've been working and fortunate to work with them For us, this is not just designing a space. For us, it's learning about the client's needs and what problem we're really trying to solve on behalf of our client. So once we understand the problem that we're trying to solve, all the decisions really around it, it's not just creating a space. It's not just creating a pretty uh output of a space. I think by doing so, we have a lot more empathy of what our clients are going through and why they have to make certain decisions, whether it's cutting the budget, whether they have to move the schedule or whatever that is. And we take on some of the risk and be very nimble with them and go along the journey with them. And that's been really resonating with a lot of our clients. We just had a really, really great feedback from our client for exact reason. There has been a lot of changes. There has been a lot of budget revision. And our team has been uh on top of it along every step of the way, because we know that was one of their problem solving that we had to take on part of the ownership and responsibility. And I think one of the feedback they said, somebody else, another design firm that they're working with, the moment there were so many changes and the moment there was a reduction of budget and change in schedule to do things faster. those teams just start to check out. They were no longer engaged in that project like they were in the very earlier on when they first won the project, whereas what they said they saw in us was completely opposite. We were more engaged, we hands-on. We were still very upfront at the table with them, trying to help them address their situation that they're going through. I think that's the mentality Ben and I from the get-go when we commiserated or contemplated about doing our own thing or even opening an office with Mancini and Phoenix was that mentality. We're here, we treat every client as if this is our first client and our last client. We also have something to prove in this market because we're relatively new. A lot of people don't know who we are uh while the Mancini name in East Coast is very established. In the Valley area, we're one of the newbies and new players in town. So um I think that mentality will stick with us no matter how long we've been in the market, no matter how long we'll be in Phoenix area. But you got something to prove it sounds like, right? We do we absolutely do But what is that the only thing that drives that mentality that you mentioned is what what is driving that? Collaboration, I mean, we're certainly not the expert of everything. When it comes to mechanical, electrical, those engineering scope of work, yes, we know enough to be dangerous, but we're not the expert. So with part of the design bill, what that taught me is bringing all the players at the table in as early as possible and even taking the client along with that journey of collaboration from the get-go. uh We focus a lot on the outcome, like what the final product looks like. And we spent a lot of time on winning the project, right? Everybody put their best foot forward, best effort to win the project. during that journey, I I think that that's as equally important because that's what you remember. You remember, that project, that team that I worked with, that was such a pleasant experience. And everybody, you know, they had their best foot forward at the table and everybody came here to help you know, create a solution. I think that's something that's always in back of our mind in every single project. How do we create the best journey for all players? Not just us, not just a client, but all the consultants as well. In micro-inditude, we talked about this a lot too before we came here, this idea that there's a lot of design firms that you put a lot of energy in that first portion to get the job. There's a lot of energy and you're, you're, you are right there. You're, you know, you're putting all your energy towards it. You're trying to get what you can. And then you end up kind of in that last 5 % doing the same thing again, because you're trying to kind of get this thing to out the door and be done and get your fee and get everything right here. you, well, what about that whole 90 % in the middle? And we don't talk about that enough. And so we spent a lot of time talking about that, that it's just this relentless pursuit of constantly doing that. And like a great example is what Hannah's talking about. That was an actual conversation she had just a little while ago from a feedback, from a client perspective. So she's really good about that. You've had what? Probably three of those kind of conversations with them already at this point. And we just started CDs, Andy. So there's this pretty consistent like, Asking for feedback where where are we right now? How are we doing? What are we doing? Well, what are we doing? Not so well So constantly kind of getting that and just this again a relentless kind of Just don't put your foot on the brake at all Because that's you know, that's the hard stuff. It's not everything in the middle. That's where it's hard That's where you really show up for a climbing and they're gonna be happy Yeah. I mean that definitely sounds really awesome now. Here's the challenge is Well, I'm not going there I'm going to the point of How do you how do you package all that up you just said and like, you know Very well, but how do you package that up and share that with a client who's like I'm looking at five different architects right now That is... That is hard. TBD. I we have a lot of great competition in the Valley as well. There's a lot of amazing firm. But I think it's a genuine, you know, when you spend time with a client and willingness to invest a little bit of effort and share your genuine interest and em you I guess your effort and your passion into it so far it's been really resonating with us. Clients has been seeing it right through and from the get-go they're like, okay, well, there's something that we're saying that seems to be, we don't know exactly what it is, but there's something we're saying to our client that's resonating with them. And it seems simple, right? Like if you really break it down, it's that interaction and compassion and willingness to really be there for your client to solve the problem. But I think, and we've been guilty of that as well in the past, but we kind of forget why we're doing it, right? Like we get so wrapped up in the journey of the schedule and deadline and budget and the fee and then trying to get our team to be much more efficient and so that we can make money. All of that is still as equally important. Of course, we were, not in business if we can't make money, but I think you If we just kind of take a one step back and look at why we're doing what we're doing and trying to be there for on behalf of client, I don't know what that magic is, but I think it's been resonating. Well, it's a mixed bag and to your point, it's a really hard thing to do because it's not going to work 100 % of the time, obviously. mean, I think that you're trying to find, we've always had the attitude of kind of quality over quantity when it comes to clients. We want to find partnerships and we want to have people that will be doing this for a while. And I think part of that is that, you know, in the traditional sense of the word, think Hannah and I, one of the things that You know as co-leadership one of the things that we used to talk about was you both have strengths and weaknesses And that's one of the reasons we love it. You help each other in that way Neither is really probably the traditional kind of business development folks. mean we did you know that's not our bag. I guess is the way I would put it but The way that we've seen this is you know what we look for is just a chance And then usually when we're given an opportunity and we go through, we can do really well because that's how we, you know, basically the proof's in the pudding to your point, Andy, about the way that we work. And so that's been really successful for us. And I think I'll tell just like this funny little anecdote sort of thing. It's a slightly embarrassing, but I think it'll tell the story because I think it's funny. Well, not to you, it's actually going to be for me. And so one of the things that I really, really believe in is, you know, sincerity is a hard thing to fake. uh And so the relationship is something that's really important to us. And so a little while back our president was here and we were going and you know when we try to get leadership here we want them to meet with as many people as we can. We're trying to introduce them as we build the name Mancini and Christian's are really energetic guys. a very dynamic person that you can get and have really good meetings with. And so as we had him here and we're running around all over the place, breakfast, lunch, dinner, in the mornings, meetings in the afternoons, whoever we can. He said something that was really funny to me at the end of the trip. And he said, you know, I think And I don't remember exactly the way he said it, Hannah, but he was talking, he was like, I think there's going to be a new way for me to kind of judge how some of the leaders work in our other offices. He says, I've never seen this before, Ben, but every time that you went and we met with some clients, they all hugged you. wow. He's like, I've never seen that. And he said, I think that was something that was kind of eye-opening to me. And so that, for me, like, I took that as a big compliment because You know, I try to be really sincere and when I develop a friendship with a client, you know, that's something that's real. It's not something that I'm trying to fake. And so we're there to try to do what's best for them. We really are representing them in the best way that we can. Yes, the business stuff's important. Yes, all of those things. But if you're prioritizing kind of the client, their needs, what they're looking for, you know, all of those things, the rest of it kind of will follow. That's my philosophy. you No ego. think that's another big thing, right? That was a big, how do we not even talk about that? Yeah, think that's something that we even, one of the criteria when we interview potential candidates to join our team because you Ego can, it's very transparent. When somebody's ego, it shows up, right? And it's pretty apparent. And I think that genuine, the sincerity that Ben's talking about, for us, we're not above it all. We just happen to be in this journey. We happen to have a little more experience in interiors and architecture or design build or whatever that may be than our client. We're bringing that level of service to our client. you we're a service industry at the end of the day. So I think we really, that's always in back of our mind. We always say check your ego at the door before you come in here because that's not welcome. And I think that shows up in that level of sincerity as well. I mean, both Ben and I, we have a client who texts us to ask us questions whether it's about project or something random because we want to build that relationship It's not about how big the project is, how much money we're going to make off of that project. It could start from something so small, but we care about building that relationship because it'll result in us potentially helping them with bigger projects down the road. And I think that's been the true testament of all the projects and the clients that we're meeting so far. you Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I mean you got to be good at what you do, which I mean I'm sure everybody in your community and your area is pretty good. So this type of thing you're talking about is that's the difference maker. You buy from who you like and you know these are ways to really connect with people. So what I'm hearing Ben is I need to start hugging my clients in order to get that. Right? Is that what you're basically saying? You never know. It certainly doesn't hurt. I'm kidding of course, anyway. That's my attempt at a joke. It's okay. so, but Hannah, you were talking about, obviously this is the Enhance Podcast, I really like to dig into your why. know, why you do it. I think we've hit on that. So while we're there, let's go ahead and just really dig in that a little bit more. mean, ah what is it that you feel enhances the world, either you or Ben, or actually both of you, of course, but what do you feel that you personally, your studio does that enhances the world around you. I think we're creating something that impacts people and their emotion, how they feel, their productivity. Anything that provokes that moment of emotion to me. that successful projects. And I think our team, whether it's through the journey of the design journey from winning the project all the way down to punch list and having client along the journey with us, or their team walking into a space that we've created and seeing their sense of excitement or how their mood changes. I think that's kind of why I do what we do. um And I think that's how our team does what they do. uh It impacts in their lives in small ways, but it's meaningful. ah It's the connection. It's what we created together impacting not only that one individual, but their community. ah I mean, I don't know how much more you can ask more than that. It's a bit of a gift. Yeah Well, and I like what you said earlier too, because the process itself was important to you. Not just, I mean, the finish is super important and starting is obviously important, but the actual enjoyment of the process itself, that's, when you enjoy that, then I can tell. I can tell why people want to work with you and why you are making the world better. Ben, what about yourself? going further and further in my career, that's slightly changed, think a little bit. My answer would be different now, I guess, than what it was earlier. But my story is a little unique, and in the sense that, so I studied something else for a while before I came to architecture. And so as I kind of went through that, and I was evaluating and understanding myself a little bit more, I've started to realize things. So I believe that architects inherently are problem solvers. I mean, I think that's what our education is about, is problem solving. And so I've recognized that about myself, That's one of the things I'm a strategy guy, I'm a problem guy, I like to resolve things. So that combined with this nature of where I am, my why is really about that. The other aspect of that to me is too is one of my absolute favorite things about this job I've learned over the years too is when we dive in and you're learning something new, uh You know, as a good example of this, um you know, we've, I've had some good experiences working with native tribes and we're working with two native tribes right now. That was one of the things that we didn't anticipate coming our way, but for some reason we're getting that work. And so the dive into the history and the culture and the people when you're researching and learning about that is something I just, that's one of the things for me that I absolutely love. And that's one of the great things about architecture too is that in every project, a long time ago I did this really cool. And here's a uh little quiz for you too, So do you remember the show The Pretender? You ever heard of that? the Marvel thing or is that? No, different. There was a... Sorry. No, no, you're good. I'm dating myself. But there was a show. It was about a guy who was a genius and the context of the show is he would go around and each show he had to become somebody. different to resolve and help this family or this person or whatever it is. so on this episode he had to be a doctor or he had to be, you know, whatever. And so he was so brilliant and so smart that he was able to adapt and become whatever that role was for that episode. And so for me, a lot of what we do on a project by project basis is we have to become an expert about something for every project and it's unique. And that's another thing I absolutely love about what I do is that idea that every project offers each of us an opportunity to learn new things. so anyway, those are the things for me that. em the creative side of what Hannah's saying that the creation thing, you know, obviously that's a high that we all get to feel, doing something and building something and seeing it come to life. But really for me, it's actually kind of the earlier stuff. It's the figuring it out and trying to understand what the problem is. um You know, the other, what I used to do, like where I thought I was gonna go, is I wanted to be an emergency room physician. So I went through school for a while. I worked in an ER for five years. So what's funny is later on in life I realized an architect and an emergency doc are almost the same job. Because it's all about problem solving. It really is. I know it sounds weird and I tell people that, but you think about it, you're presented a case. There's a lot of variables and you're trying to figure out what those are. Some of them are really apparent. Some you've got to figure out through testing or figure out the programming or whatever it might be. And then it's about taking all of that information and kind of resolving it to an outcome. In an emergency room environment, it's about stabilizing a patient and getting them out the door or wherever it might be. For an architect, it's about resolving this into this design that fixes all of those problems. And so it's the same process. I didn't know that back then. I didn't know. Yep. Yeah, there are no architecture emergencies. We say that a lot. but the point is, is I think for me, that's my why. That's for, it was, it is that process that for me that drives me every single day. is taking them through their emergency, so to speak, and solving that problem. Yeah. Some of those, by the way, and we've all probably had projects where those are really easy to understand, or they'll come to you and say, is our problem, and then you realize that's not really what their problem is. How many times does that happen? You figure that out along the way a little bit. I think the future where we go, the way, is a recognition of that. They'll be like, well, we're running out of space. need to build this whole new building because we need more desks. Well, is there other ways to resolve that issue? Could you do it differently? Could you add another overnight kind of thing? Or could you do partially remote? you do like there are any number of ways to that solution to resolve that issue? We should be paid no matter what the solution is. It might not be building a building anymore. Yeah, I mean that's really interesting. I've had that experience too where it was, I thought I wanted something and it actually kind of like to the no ego point, takes a little bit of, it almost takes the opposite of that, right? Because you have to tell them, I really think, you have to balance that guess is what I'm saying. You have to tell them, hey, I really think you don't need extra space. What you need is to like reconfigure this. oh or something, I don't know, as an example. what is an example that you can think of where you solve somebody's problem? Well, let's stay relevant to where we are right now. think so one of the projects that we're working on is um with it. That's when the tribal projects was working with one of the tribes here in Arizona, the Wallopi tribe. And we've talked about this one a lot, but we're still under construction. And so uh just high level version of this problem without diving too deep into it was they're located in the very northwest corner of the state. very remote. Peach Springs is the name of the town and by the way when I say that here almost no one knows what that is in Arizona. Like it's that's you know they have no cell service there's nothing there's And so they wanted to build, had a bunch of money that came to them through COVID and they wanted to use it to build a tribal administration building like their city hall, their capital kind of a building. And tribes, they have a lot of difficulty with doing projects when it's situations like this where it's remote. They get taken advantage of, it's very expensive because you're asking designers and builders to go in the middle of nowhere. So all of these challenges that they do on a day to day basis. And so we were part of a team that was helping kind of get in front of that and trying to help resolve those problems. But specifically to that building itself, we knew it was gonna be difficult. And so one of the ways that we worked to kind of solve that problem, Andy, was saying, okay, well. We know that getting trades up there, getting people to work is going to be difficult. how do we do something that maybe would make things quicker? And so the way they resolved that was we came up with a scheme of kind of breaking the building up into four different modules and each one is a highly customized pre-engineered metal building. and then we connected them all together. So it's one building, but the way that the erection of the primary structure and the skin and all those things could happen really, really quickly, because it's kind of an off the shelf component. Of course, we made it difficult doing customization pieces to this, but anyway, the theory anyway was taking advantage of things that are gonna make this faster and easier. And so that was a resolution of a huge issue that they had. And so we're finally now we're under construction, the skin starting to go on these buildings and we're starting to see it come to life. And we're getting the response to that, which is this, you One of the main clients, I think Hannah brought him up earlier, uh is the CFO for the tribe and he called the other day just to talk about it. He's like, I can't believe this. uh He's so animated and so excited. And that has been a very rewarding project for us because of that kind of reaction where people are like, know, can't believe this. is also perfect example where we had all the players earlier on engage into the project, know, including clients and took along that journey of decision making. When we have to make the decisions in a timely manner, there was reason behind it. There were certain things that we had to value engineers. There was reason behind it. And client knew every step of the way. And he was even sitting at the table with us when we're having this discussion. So... the end product and what he's starting to see in the job side, it feels a lot more fruitful because he's been along the entire journey rather than just a portion of decision making. Right? So, and I think all the teammates that who's been working on the project, I mean, there was no ego. There was no ego of MEP. There's no ego of structural. There's no ego. Right. We had zero time. Everybody had to come to the table with a solution and idea. of how we can come up with a solution for it. that probably is a perfect example as to the culture and the value that we try to instill in our office. That's awesome. It sounds like a successful project and just a great example of how your team is really enjoying working with both of you. So I want to just hit on a couple more questions and then let you get back to the heat there in Phoenix. uh what is, we didn't really hit on this, but what is your profile of work that you really like to do or is there a type of work that you're focusing on right now? We, mean, sort of office environment has been our bread and butter. That's something that both Ben and I have a pretty extensive experiences in. uh Multifamily is something that we're really trying to develop here further too, uh along with residential tapping into our resources and talents we've got. uh Hospitality, that's probably the one market where we're really trying to penetrate into and showcase our capabilities. uh If Ben and I had a perfect way, think, um what am I looking for? um It's not mixed use, but it's, I'm losing my The board may be here. No, um I'm not sure where you're going. my god I'm having a brain moment maybe I need more coffee. It's not mixed use like in an ideal way like if we had a perfect way we talked about it in converting gas station into a thank you adaptive reuse. I think that will be our goal. Yeah I mean there are just so many great opportunity here in our market that's kind of abandoned or left dormant that they could be converted into the supporting community, whether it's mixed use, whether it's other functions. So I think that will be our passion project. Yeah, for sure. I think we've been really lucky, Andy. em When we first started this, obviously we built up kind of a business plan where we wanted to go. That got completely shot down when clients came with us that we didn't expect and blew that all up. Out of that though, we've been really fortunate. We're super diverse. So a lot of the project types that we've worked and everything she talked about, you know, in addition to ah we've done every type of office, we've done higher education, we've done, you know, we've been really very, very lucky that way. I think what we're trying to do though is The only one that I would add to the list of what Hannah was just talking about, those are kind of core where we're working towards is kind of the municipal side. So civic um is one that, it really, guess you could call it maybe public, but so civic and higher education is another one that we're working on. um We think it's really important to be diverse as far as both on the private and the public. ah I have a significant amount of experience myself working with municipal. um and higher education clients, anything public really, a lot of different entities, whether it's municipalities or the state or whatever it might be. So I think those are kind of the core of where we go on. mean, we're very fortunate as a firm that we do work in many, many practice areas like a lot of firms do. But for us, yeah, those are kind of the bit of the focus right now. Yeah, okay awesome and you've got a company again back to the benefit of a bigger company because I mean you could say hey our our home office can deal with that part because maybe you're not able to handle it locally etc. uh So awesome well I want to because of the way this conversation went I wanted to if you're open to it, just a different like question because both of you seem like you get along really well and uh I just wanted to just say, hey, I wanted each of you to just say something about the other and anything that maybe the audience would want to know about or maybe um people don't know about you. So anything that you feel is relevant. It could be, you know, probably. make it I was hoping you'd you know not use ego right? Nah I'm just kidding. yeah if you could you know this felt like the way the conversation went that would be a fun question to ask so I'll let you guys decide who wants to go first. That's a really good question. I mean, something that they might not know about each other. Okay, so I think... Is that the question? Something that... Just something about Hannah, so Ben, something about Hannah that the audience might want to know or maybe that your, even like your team doesn't know, so just something interesting basically about Hannah and likewise about Ben, so about the other person. The face I think is, that she's making right now is telling. So, okay. So I'm guessing what she'll say will be very, you know, responsive to what I say. You know, I think, okay, so yeah, you're right on Andy. We've been very fortunate, so I'm trying to think how long. So we worked together three and a half years at the other. So we've been what, like four and a half, five years at this point. longer than that for some reason. something, so it's been a little bit. So I think um if I was to kind of approach this in a couple different ways, think one of the funny things I'll say, this might be a kind of fun moment, is I think that my wife and Hannah have a better relationship than I do in some ways. That is Like they would pick her over me any day of the week, so there's that that side of it. I think that's been very frustrating And so a little factoid too by the way with that Andy that might be interesting is I'm the only guy in this office So that's been another piece that's been interesting. There's a lot of feminine energy in this office em So there's that and then I think Getting so much work Yeah, it makes things fun. I'll say that. I think from kind of working with Hannah though, I'll add something on that side of it too. So one of the things that I'm super grateful for and I think one of the things that has been a real benefit is that Hannah is really, really good at kind of the details uh in many ways. And so one of the things that I've always struggled with, and I remember my mentor when I was young, I worked at another bigger firm and he was great and I loved working with him and we used to talk a lot about, I tended to be, you know, I'd put the blinders on and I would bore in and I would just go and I'd get too far down a road and not realize I need to kind of pull back out a little bit. And we had a lot of those conversations about, you know, when you're at 50,000 foot elevation and when you're at 500 and knowing when. because I get enamored with an idea or kind of problem solving kind of thing, right? Andy and I just kind of keep going. And so when you're doing that, a lot of times you miss some of the little details. uh You're kind of just going after something. And I've been known for that problem slightly. So one of the things that's been great is having Hannah as a partner with me that is helping me You know, as I said at the very beginning, this was not the path I saw for myself, right? I learned a lot of things in the last several years of working where we were together in a leadership role that I could do things that I didn't know I could. And a lot of that came from working with Hannah and this ability to kind of push me a little bit better to kind of recognize that and stay on top of things that I needed to. And so I think that was one of the things, I think her attentiveness and detail-oriented and knowing you know, holding us to account in a good way on that has been something that I really, really appreciate about working with Anna. Aww, shocks! uh You know, when, as I said earlier, when this opportunity to potentially open an office for Mancini Phoenix, I could have had many options of people who I, you know, called to join me in this journey. That was like the third choice. Okay, whatever. He was the one and only. um I knew he shared that genuine vision, caring for the clients. And one of the things that every single client that Ben has ever worked with, I have yet to met any client who he doesn't build a meaningful relationship with. I think it's his genuine sincerity approach to each project and their... the problems that they're dealing with, he approached with such a care and compassion. And I think because of that, he always tend to build this really concrete relationship with his client. And that fundamental, that core value that he has, I knew that was exactly who I wanted in my partner to grow this office, to open this office. And that has been the case. And I think I get very focused in Big Picture and he tells me that I'm an agent of chaos sometimes because I'm constantly thinking for the what's next, what can we do differently, know, what's the next vision, where do we grow and how do we grow to their bit of a bulldog once I bite I don't let go, keep on I just go after it and go after it. Whereas I think Ben creates that sense of calm. He's like, okay, pull back one second. Let's strategically think through rather than rushing through it. So I think there has been really great balance of his personal strength and my personal strength that really complement each other and even his work style. I mean, he creates these beautiful sketches and he has ability to share his ideas with team and communicate at the design director level that he operated even in the past. I think that's something that I really appreciate what he's able to offer to our team as well. Thank you. awesome. Yeah, thank you for doing that. ah Both of you, I know that was maybe uncomfortable, uh but I mean that's what you guys do. You're sincere, so it seemed like appropriate. uh It wasn't on the questionnaire, but it was something I felt like it was going to be fun. thanks for sharing that. I was expecting a joke about Dr. Pepper, but I... uh I, you know, mean that's given. He's he's Dr. Pepper addict. Okay. uh We'll get that going. I to the doctor school or is it? oh No, that's a The way I see that so I don't drink I don't smoke I don't you know do hard drugs Andy I thought and I did convert to diet a long time ago at least for my wife so that helped me a lot But the way I see that is like at least I'm not mainlining heroin or something. I you know I have a diet doctor per pepper problem, okay? Yeah. Dr. connoisseur he goes to specific places to get his soda and has to be ony at McDonald's Okay, you gotta you gotta get that Dr. Pepperino. But awesome. Well, this has been a really fun episode with both of you. I've learned a lot about... Oh, I did have one other question because I wanted to get one other fun fact from you because I've been to Arizona or Phoenix. So could you just tell me, I don't know, something interesting about Phoenix, anything you feel, or Arizona. So something else about Phoenix or Arizona that we might should know about. Oh man, well, so I've been here, well that's one funny thing. You've been here kind of a certain amount of time. They can say, we all joke around that you qualify as Native. So I've been here since 97 and I guess that qualifies as Native. But I'm actually Canadian. Oh really? Yeah, so that's the funny thing on was tough. Yeah, no, no, it's it's I question myself every every summer why I live here. So I would say, em you know, one of the things that I love about Arizona is, you know, a lot of people come here and I and I even complain about this at times like the shades of tan and brown Andy are very, strong like that. And that's a joke, right? But what I will say, though, is there is a aesthetic, there is an experience to what Arizona is from just when you go out and you actually see the sky, you see the sun, you see especially a sunset and a sunrise and the environment and the context that we live in in kind of a native desert landscape. There is nothing else like it than here. I have never seen anything in the world that is like Arizona. And so I think that is a lot of the reason that you see some of these architects, designers, storytellers, photographers, know, the creative types that come here and they're inspired by it because there really is just something very, very unique and very, special about a desert landscape and specifically in Arizona, the Sonoran Desert landscape that isn't nowhere else. That's one thing I would say. Yeah, I would agree. the greenery, you know, I think when my East Coast friends... heard that I'm moving here they're like why are you going to desert like there's nothing nothing is alive there it's not true there's the blossom I mean right now like everything during our winter season that's when things blossom here so you get this beautiful fragrant of smell whenever you walk and there's certain scent to the desert that I can't quite pinpoint but it is beautiful and I've really grown accustomed to and realizing how much of their different you know landscape that that's here that is so stunning so that is true there's no the sunset sunrise here I mean that's I've never seen colors like that the unique unique things and things that this scare me there's something here called Haboob which I never learned it until I moved here which is a sandstorm or the dust storms that come through and so in front of storms Andy they'll whip up those you know huge cloud that comes but you do get a warning on your phone and the first time I got it it says Haboob and it tells you the time that it's coming pull over to the side stay alive that's the warning that they give you. I'm like what did I do living here other than that it's been amazing So that's serious. I mean this is a serious thing. yeah, it is. People don't realize that we do have a monsoon season. Like I said, it's not as bad as it used to be. They're violent, they're very strong winds, lightning, thunder, heavy rains when it does come. And yeah, there's been... uh You know, we have laws that are revolving around that. So, for example, the washes that come here, they can get violently going from a flood standpoint when the rains are hard, coming down really hard. And people will drive through that thinking that, it doesn't look that bad, and I'll drive through it. So they call it stupid motorist laws. And it's when you decide that if you want to take your car through one of those washes and you get washed away and you have to be rescued or whatever, you're paying the bill for every single person on that fire rescue team. wow. you know, so yeah, those storms that come through, they're beautiful at times, Like, you see the photos of those dust storms when they're first coming and, you you've got a mile high kind of dust cloud that's coming violently at you. It's really pretty, actually, at first. But yeah, when you're in it, it sucks. you know whether these were the answers you were hoping for. I I think every place on the planet and in the US has its environmental issues, know, like you have hurricanes, you have these, ah but we just have to learn to deal with them, I guess. But that's a weird place to end it, I suppose. Let's just cut it earlier and just talk about the sunrises and the sunsets. Ignore my Haboo I mean it's an interesting fun fact. I mean I'll probably remember that one. So I want to have that stupid motorist tax or whatever happen. But was there anything else that you wanted to mention today or that I didn't get on? It was great to meet you. I think this was a lot of fun. think we've been fortunate. We've done a few different kind of podcasts talking about different things. And I think this one was kind of refreshing in the sense, where it was more about kind of us and the office and kind of... Yeah, it's a little bit more... It was a very different conversation. So I appreciate that. It was fun to talk with you. Yeah, it was uh lot of fun. I learned a lot about some different things. So I'm an entrepreneur myself, like whenever people bring that up. So if I spent a little too much on that, then that's why. So glad you hung on that one for a little while. But I think people can learn from that. We have a lot of business owners and uh people that maybe want to hang a shingle one day. So I thought, why don't we give them some input on that? So also Hannah, Ben, it was great to have you today. and I wish you all the success in your studio there. Thank you. it. Come and visit us. Just not during my season. gonna check it out, yeah. In the winter, Bye uh Thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhance and please leave a like, subscribe, follow and we'll see you next time.