So on today's episode we had Jonathan Korr, who is a marketing specialist who focuses on transforming marketing strategies for construction firms. And what did you think about today's episode? A lot about marketing, about social media. For example, we talked about are you checking boxes or are we are you getting where you need to go? Which one would you say for yourself? I think I'm getting to where I wanna go, maybe. I don't really know where I wanna go, so it's hard to do that. So at the moment you just check boxes, which I think is what most people do. It's easier to do that when you don't have a vision for where you see yourself in ten years or two years or next week. Yeah, and it's twenty twenty six, so social media, marketing, they're both really important in getting new work, getting business for contractors. So Jonathan works with contractors as his focus and and the AEC industry. So he has a good he has good insights on the AEC industry as a l as a whole. And he really had some some good insights into branding. We talked about so many different things that um for example And we even talked about how to get how to get your post to pop off the best. Pop off queen. Yeah, that was that was fun. Which th th going back to the that point we just mentioned, like, is that really the goal is to just pop off? Is it is it more important to go viral or is it more important to have quality and value? Viral or value? That was a question we talked about. For sure. Which camp are you in? probably the value one, even though that doesn't I think that if you focus on something that's important to you, you will eventually find the people who also find that important. It's like that if you try to please everybody, you please nobody. So you try to appeal to yourself and the people like you and so you'll end up getting the audience like you that you probably want. Yeah, be true to yourself. Mm-hmm. I like it. Okay. Well, my name's Andy Richardson and this is our producer Madeline, and this is the Enhanced Podcast, where we interview architects, contractors, and engineers and find out what their story is and what their why is. Come check it out with us. Let's jump to the intro. you Welcome to Enhance, an AEC podcast, where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why. Well hey Jonathan, welcome to the Enhanced Podcast. Thanks for having me and be excited for a conversation today. Yeah, definitely. So first time we really got to know each other, so good to meet you virtually, albeit, but good to you for sure. No, it's totally I'm sure there's probably a lot of people within the industry that you've been connected to who you're like, Man, like I know who they are, I just never talk with them, things like that. So it's always cool within this format to be able to do that and and hopefully exchange a few thoughts. Yeah, definitely. So I got a couple questions for you I want to get started with just to open it up. Um and you've got a podcast of your own. What what's the name of that podcast? Yeah, so I have a podcast. I started in the new year. It's called Construction CEO, basically sitting down, in person, long form uh conversations with uh construction CEOs, executives, presidents, owners of commercial, industrial contractors. Basically just unpacking their story and uh also to having lots of rabbit holes, your rabbit trails down, you know, a lot of different paths, but basically as a way to just talk about the industry in a less structured, less corporate way. Yeah, man, I bet you have a bunch of good stories. Yeah. I mean I I've honestly been learning a lot about, you know, these individuals. I and I it's interesting 'cause the most fascinating stories to me are are the individuals who, you know, started Boots on the Ground as a like a apprentice and then eventually now, you know, for example, one of the more recent guests is like a owner of a mac a large maca you know, uh I I I would say me a m medium sized mechanical contractor out of here in the Pacific Northwest and I'm just like, Man, how do you how do you do that? you know, 'cause obviously there's a lot of apprentices but there's very few owners, especially in that capacity. So It's just super interesting to get to know them and get to know more of the story. Yeah, and I mean that's gonna be so helpful when you're listening to other people, you can get good ideas about what people are doing and how they're growing. So Um, so just a fun question to think about for your podcast, but um let's imagine that you uh could bring in any celebrity guest just to spice it up. maybe in the construction industry or maybe even outside, who would you bring in? Ooh, celebrity, man, who do I? Maybe just some some boundaries regard to a I would think is like 'cause like for example, I I don't really follow much pop culture, so I don't even know all the big names out there to be frank, but I assume it's just somebody that, you know, I I may not know myself. Is that is that what you're saying? Yeah, just anybody. I mean it might be somebody that in our industry is a rock star. Or it might just be like, you know what, I'd rather I'd like to have this guy on because I just you know, no boundaries. Yeah, no boundaries. It's just for for yeah, for me the the person that comes to mind specifically, especially within the industry, is Bob Clark from Claiko out of Chicago. You know, he's I I I made a spotlight post about him years ago. And mainly because he's an executive that, you know, obviously is a founder of a of a large, you know general contracting firm, national, and it's interesting because he posts content as well. And especially in an industry like construction, like it's incredibly like, you know, heads down, kind of like l next project sort of mentality. Let's just, you know and I think that's o that's good. That's what keeps things going. But it's just really interesting to see an executive of that caliber and that much influence feel compelled to post content. And so that's somebody I've actually I I think I'm uh I don't know if I DMed him or commented on one of his posts, but I'm like, Hey, you I'm like you the I I threw the idea, I'm like, Hey, you should you know Do a podcast or something like that telling your whole story. He's like, Yeah, actually we're working on something and maybe eventually I'll actually get the boldness to be like, Hey, I would love to interview, I would love to go out to Chicago and, you know, sit down with you for a long form conversation. But that's the person that comes to mind right off the bat. Yeah, man, go for it. I think you should go for it. So um th that's fun that's a fun one to think about and yeah, I've seen I've seen some of his posts, so it is exciting to see that. Um so what so with that, I mean, kind of tying into what you do, which is uh basically social media consulting and what what is it exactly you do besides just podcasting? is there anything else you do with regard to po social media and Yeah. For sure. No, so so that's a good question. So like long story short is for me, you know, I I I grew up around the trades. My dad had his own residential commercial painting contracting business. i in high school I basically uh would work the summers mainly 'cause I needed like I I remember asking one year my dad, Hey, can I have money for school clothes? And he's like I don't have money for school clothes, but if you want you can come work for me and make some money and then, you know, buy our school clothes. So I did that. And eventually, you know, went went down the music route for for a few years and then eventually made my way back into the industry as a marketing guy. And and so I I say all this to say, like for me, I realize when being a mark a former marketing guy within a commercial construction company, you handle a lot of stuff. It's not just social, it's the website, it's even to for some r some roles it's uh events, uh networking, it's video, it's photography, it's it basically anything that smells like marketing is thrown at you. And I just remember when I was doing that role, I'm like, I wonder if do this function, like of social media. Obviously, like this contractor obviously was, you know, employing me and you know to do a lot of different things and it made sense. The value was there. But I'm like, I really like this specific function. One, I enjoyed it, and then two, I started to see a few individuals within the industry who were starting to post what now I know as like a personal brand content. They were posting it back in like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I think that this is the way I I think this is where the puck is going within the industry. And so eventually I ventured off and started my own company. And at first I did anything for anybody that, you know, that would pay me. Just trying to get my boots off the ground. And eventually little by little narrowed into um, you know, social media marketing for commercial and industrial contractors. I have worked with a few heavy civil, but mainly it's the commercial industrial is i is the uh niche in which I work in. And it it's interesting though because like, you know, with with what you mentioned about consultancy, things like that, I've actually recently going back to what I mentioned about personal brand is I realize, you know, it is an incredibly relationship based industry. And so more recently we started to uh expand into actual you know thought leadership content for executives and construction. And so and and so th that's the you know, we're we're still helping, you know, company brands, you know, stay top of mind with their projects, people, purpose, things that are going on within their company. And also too, we're now working directly with executives within the industry to be able to help they basically shape and find their voice and also to share the story, share insights, things like that as a way for I guess two big things is one of them is business development and the other one being talent acquisition and as well as talent retention, things like that. So at a high level like that that's currently what we're doing for commercial industrial contractors. Man, that's a that's a lot. That's a lot right there. So you're really so anything marketing is what you were doing with the company, that's that's what got your start, but now it sounds like the social media is the most mostly the focus, or is it general marketing? Yay! no, so so so I mean it's interesting 'cause there there are other individuals who have to do this, do you do that? You know, can you uh probably it probably be mediocre, but the reality is for me I I do see, especially even now as the industry's getting younger, like I'm seeing a lot of individuals on LinkedIn. I mean, that's how you and I have connected. Um, that's a lot of individuals are connecting and constantly, you know, building relationships, starting relationships, nurturing relationships and so My thing is mainly around that. Is I I realize for me my strength is a story is is is telling a story. It's like, hey, what like you know, trying to find cause even too, like for example, literally a few hours, like two, three hours ago, I was just meeting with a client and he was just sharing a lot of insight about the industry and things like that. And I'm like, man, I really think you should be posting content on your LinkedIn. But the biggest thing is one of them is like just fear around, hey, like putting myself out there. I'm like, and And and it's like, well, what if I say things wrong? All these different things. And so my goal, I'm realizing, yes, it's like maybe social media, but it's mainly like how do I extract the gold that's inside of you? And then how do I leverage my skills to shape it in a way that it is actually like people will ingest it and and want to engage and then ultimately obviously publish it for these executives and because I honestly feel like every con no construction company or any company in the AEC space is the same, even if you offer the same services. There's different people, different types of leaderships, different goals, different cultures. And so my thing is like the best way to differentiate yourself is by leaning in and trying to figure out what is that gold. And sometimes it does take an outsider to be able to ask specific questions to draw it out. Like, wow, I didn't you know, I didn't I I I completely forgot about that. Or I I didn't think about, you know, as they're sharing and things like that. So So it's also in a way to answer like like I said, I'm not trying to just do social media just to check the box. My goal is like there's a story to tell. within the industry and how do I help draw out those stories, whether it's the company as a whole or the individual executives or leaders at the top. So is your goal to help these prof these executives and so forth to d is it is your goal to coach them into doing this themselves, like to be the next Bob Clark? Or is it to do this for them like as a ghost writer of sorts? Like what's the goal or is it both? Great question. So this is more of a recent thing. I realized if I try to coach contractors, especially too with something like this, something so intimate, something so private, something that you can analysis paralysis can get in the way, they're probably not gonna do anything. If I'm if I'm frank. So my thing is right now what I'm doing is uh working in a ghostwriting uh capacity and, you know, meeting with them once a month and basically th they may have topics, I may have curiosities 'cause I mean I have endless questions I can ask executives that I n that genuinely as a content guy, like because for me as I study and analyze a lot of this content, I'm like, I know the certain topics or things that where you press those buttons, people will engage. And and so and so for me, my thing is how do I figure out one, your story as well as maybe a blend of that. Also two, there's gonna be certain scenarios where that may not be the case and some some may have less engagement or things like that. But my goal as a as a marketing guy, 'cause like like the reality is like for example, there's a contractor I work with incredible communicator. You talk to him and like you know, I actually had lunch with him yesterday and I just get amped up. I'm just like he just gets me excited. But when what like like the messaging or things like that, the written part he says, he's like, hey, I struggle with like I he just doesn't know how to do it. And so my thing is like, you know, whether it's having a ghostwriter or e may maybe you just lean into video content. Because like there are certain executives and individuals who are incredibly well and, you know, when they're just talking. And so I I I I think right now, like I said, just starting off with with the ghostwriting partnership piece. Like I said, mainly for me as an outsider to ask questions because there's certain it's interesting. I'll I'll talk to executives and what's common knowledge or seems like elementary to them, I'm like, no, that actually is really interesting. I think that has legs and then we double click on that and unpack it more and more and more and and go through the whole process. But it's just easy to be like, ah, you know what, it doesn't really matter. It's not that important. Like, no, like what you're saying is actually really interesting. Um, and so my goal is to, you know, one, extract that, and two, but there there is some coaching too, um, as well involved as we dialogue with this.'Cause for example, the hard part th th the the typical default for any executive is to kinda lean more high level and like, you know, hey, what's your meaning of success or definitions that we'll go into these like broad, you know, analogies and things like that and like it's something anybody can say or ChatGPT can say. Like I could literally ask ChatGPT the same thing. It will say the same exact thing. But I want to be more specific. Like how do you and so my goal, the thing I've learned is like the better the question, the better response. And so my goal is to really try to figure out how to weave my way in to eventually figure out what that right question is. Cause like for example last month there was a personal brand client I was working with and I started with one question And eventually I just said, Hey, just start talking and eventually he kind of like started you know, after maybe four or five minutes of sh talk of responding to my question, he kind of went off on different you know, a different exit and I'm like What and then by the time he was dead, I'm like, That was really interesting. We kinda had to go through, you know, some maneuvering to get there, but we got here and I'm like, I think that that piece right there has legs, so Yeah, okay. Um so the ghost so this ghostwriting thing, um, and I'm not I mean, I've never really done that before or or used a ghostwriter. So how does that work? I mean, you like go and log into their account and post for them or you're posting on the company page or is it a combination of both? Yeah, so for the company side, I mean, for example, I'll I'll kind of differentiate them, but I'll I'll start off first by answering the ghostwriting piece is like my skill set is copywriting. My skill set is storytelling, my skill set is knowing the psychology around okay, what gets somebody to to click, what gets somebody to read, what gets somebody to engage, what gets somebody to take an action. And so my goal is like uh so I'll meet with executives f once a month for an hour and and like I said, we'll uh I I I used to start with sort of an agenda, but now I come with a few questions. I'm like, I think these whether it's like things going on with the industry or like a question that just came to mind for me that I might, you know, start a conversation with and then from there just let them go go off from there and basically share and keep in mind I'm recording all these conversations for the audio, mainly 'cause I want to keep I wanna understand what the tone of voice, how does this individual Sound, so they don't sound like Jonathan. So they don't sound like a marketing person like obviously I I leverage my insight and wisdom, but my goal is I don't want them to sound like me. I want them to sound like them. And so as we record, I'll ask these questions and then when it goes to the content planning, then I'll basically like organize a lot of the content be like, Hey, this was interesting, this is interesting, I think this has legs and I'll timestamp them. That way I can refer back to them of one, both the tone is what I'm looking for. It's like what's the tone of voice of this individual? And then what's the substance of what they're saying? Because like I said as too now, I I I and and I might talk a lot about AI to a certain capacity, but the hard part is if you let AI do all the content creation or thinking for you, you're gonna sound like everybody else. Cause the you know, it if you're using the same inputs as everybody else, you're just gonna spew out the same outputs. The unique piece that the contractors or I think executives have is their own unique stories, perspectives, opinions. And so like I said, once I get that, then we'll go through our whole copywriting piece, you know, send over content to them for them to have final sign off. Sometimes they'll rework the content, which is totally cool and then I'll I'll get my hands in it again too. Because sometimes they're like I still wanna add the the copywriting fundamentals and principles. Like even though this does like they they got their hands, you know, on it, I wanna make sure it's structured in a way that still keeps the person reading.'Cause uh from a copywriting perspective, not to get too technical, but the goal of of copywriting is to get the person to read the first sentence and the goal after that sentence is for them to read the second and continue along the path and so I wanna make sure that that's woven in there and that doesn't get stuck. And we go from there. And then yeah, publishing it on their behalf, but we usually we use like a social media scheduler mainly 'cause we don't want to log into their you know, it it's an incredibly personal, intimate page 'cause you could be talking about business conversation, things like that. So I'm like, that's still with you have access to that. We just need to log in once so we connect stuff so we can just distribute the content. The only caveat here 'cause it's interesting, contractors like, Will you do the commenting for us and things like that? It's like we don't. Because you're hopefully the one building those relationships. Like we want people like we want the executive to whether it's a business development nurturing piece or whether it's a talent piece that you're trying like you should be the one starting, you know, uh one engaging with the people that are engaging with your content and hopefully, you know, potentially starting, you know, potential business opport business development opportunities or maybe trying to hire or recruit somebody, hopefully that'll make that door easier for you to open. Yeah, okay. So settle the debate then as far as c personal versus company page posting. Which one should we do? Yeah, well, it depends where you're at. Like i like for example for me, I'm I'm a small company, I have a small team. the ah leverage for me is the personal brand. Um, people know me. Th it'd be great down the line they know my company, but at this point I'm I'm the one engaging with these individuals. I you still have my hands in and a lot of the business, things like that. And so I think for me that's the higher leverage piece because for example, there are company pages that I do follow, um, but I don't follow them as intently as the individuals at those companies or leaders in the industry who are posting, you know, their own thoughts, opinions, perspective, lessons, failures, things like that. Like that's far more compelling for me. But at a certain point Like obviously I want to encourage both. But from a leverage standpoint, if you want to be able to improve business development and talent acquisition opportunities for your company, I think the personal brand play for sure one hundred percent go with go there. But then once you get like some some level of established okay, we've got things going, then figure out ways to loop in the company brand. Cause typically eventually what will happen is the company brand will become more like, you know Whether it's project updates or, you know, people initiatives or updates or other initiatives within the company. Even if for example, the week that we're recording this is Safety Week. That's a big initiative, you know, sharing your thoughts, things like that. but the goal from a company brand is to tell the story of the collective whole of the company and not just the single individual. And it's more far reaching, which is good. But I think the the the piece that I've noticed at least is the personal brand actually, I think, adds more feel to the company page. Uh... Once you start that. And so that would be my advice would be d depending if you're a smaller contractor or like company that's just starting out more recently, I would say the company brand probably is is gonna be the bigger leverage. But if you've been around for, you know, ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty years and you have nothing, it's you probably have a lot of relationships and things like that. People would know your company. So I'm like, it probably makes more sense to start there and then eventually go the personal brand route. But honestly for me, I just knowing What I'm seeing within the industry is the personal brand play. I it it it just makes a lot of sense to me. Even for example, for me, I started I'm not a sales guy. Like I'm not a cold calling, cold email, but that's just not my personality type. I'm a marketing guy. I like to s hide behind a screen like we are right now. And say that because I remember like years ago, I'm like, hey, I wonder if I post content on social media, can I at least get one client? And it took about eight months to finally get my first lead. Which didn't turn into a client, but actually it's funny enough, last year they actually ended up this is a commercial genocontractor out of Pennsylvania who ended up becoming a c a client a result as a result. And it's interesting 'cause I stayed top of mind 'cause I was still posting content. But I think it was a few months after that eight months, I think it might have been month ten or eleven, I eventually had a national G C reach out to me, say, Hey, see your contact any way you can help us with our, you know, social and eventually, you know became a client and they're still a client to this day. And so for me, my thing is like And I when I first started nobody knew me and I honestly I I still take that that perspective of like nobody knows who I am so that's I'm I'm just still putting my thoughts out there. But I'm like, especially back then, I I didn't I was just sharing my thoughts and I'm like the fact that I could move an executive who's got who's a national general contractor to reach out and and want to partner because of the con because he resonated with what I had to say, things like that and now wants to do business, I'm like holy moly, I need to continue to do this more and more. So that's what I've done over the years and that's how I've been able to build my book of businesses, mainly just posting content on LinkedIn, sharing my thoughts and ideas. ah on there. So you like LinkedIn for posting? Yep, l love LinkedIn. There there's obviously other platforms. I think it if I didn't I think I like it one because that's where my ideal customers or clients are at. That that's where they spend the most time. Like when I'm talking to executives, if I start posting on let's say like TikTok or something like that, like they're probably not gonna be on there. Um they some might, but it's a very different mindset. Like for me when I log on to like a non LinkedIn platform, I have a different mentality. I'm not here to like think about business or work. I'm maybe just trying to scroll by and see what's on, you know, what's happening online. But when I'm on LinkedIn, I'm intentionally like in a sort of business mind, like hey, I want to learn something, you know, I want to hear people's thoughts. I want to see where the industry's going, things like that. So I just think it's the best platform for the you know B2B AEC industry because that's where a lot of folks spend a lot of time on. But if I had to invest a lot more time into one other you know, into a different platform that wasn't LinkedIn. It would probably be YouTube at this point. Both long form content as well as short form content. And the reason I say that is years ago I started this I love podcasting. So I had this a side project called Construction Marketers and I was basically just creating tons of content about, you know, mark I wanted to basically zoom out of just social media and just start talking about marketing as a whole and I did it and I ha I I mean it's been over two years since I posted on there, but I'm still getting views on my content. I'm still getting uh new subscribers, I'm I'm getting people commenting saying, Hey, like it's a bummer that you stopped posting content, can you post more content? And the reason I like YouTube is because the shelf life is a lot better. Uh LinkedIn you post on here, it could last anywhere between like a few days to a few weeks and then it's it's out of the ether. Versus on YouTube like you could start like I had a vid this video that I have It might have just had less than two hundred views. Now it's like probably over twelve or thirteen hundred views and I haven't done anything. Like I didn't do anything more to optimize it or change it. It's just I just gave it time and it the algorithm did its thing and started feeding it to the right people. And it's interesting 'cause then I started getting leads from that video. And so for me I'm like, man, that's incredible. I can create one thing that doesn't just die. It's like I build something, it's like it's like an asset. It's like an investment. It's like it just grows over time. Sometimes slowly. But if I'm consistent with it, like it's it's like, I can just keep doing more of this and I know that the it won't die after two, three weeks. It'll continue. If anything, maybe a year from now it'll blow up and all of a sudden I'll get more views and then more opportunities, things like that. So that's probably the other platform. I'm sure that there probably are other ones like TikTok or Instagram reels, things like that that people would say. But I would say from a leverage standpoint, that's probably the the other that's currently the platform I'm actually beginning to explore w how I'm gonna approach that one because I do see The amount of investment in my time is a lot more valuable when it's you know, when it just compounds over time instead of just dies. Yeah, I mean that's good feedback for me 'cause I'm I'm always uh you know, thinking about what what should I do next 'cause you know I'm I'm on LinkedIn um and and the podcast is on YouTube, but I haven't done much else on YouTube. but this is for for your customers, your clients are contractors, so you give them the same advice that as as what you just mentioned as far as the LinkedIn and YouTube, or is that just for you? you Yeah, so I mean for sure the LinkedIn, the YouTube pieces for suggestion mainly 'cause most contractors aren't doing any video content already as is, or you know, if I talk about video they're like I don't want to do video or anything like that. Um so but if I if I were to suggest, yeah. But I think for contractors it's a lot different because, you know, for example, LinkedIn, like I said, it's a great avenue for like business development, you know, talent acquisition, things like that. Um, Whereas the like kind of Facebook and Instagram are more of like a culture play, especially too for contractors who are self performing, doing some of their own work or you know, those specific roles in the in in the trades or in the field, like those individuals are highly active, especially on platforms like uh Facebook. But also too, like the the the Instagram too, when you think of like maybe the younger PMs or PEs or field engineers or individuals like that, that's where they spend more time. So I would say those platforms are probably being themselves more of a culture play than they do anything. And then whereas LinkedIn it definitely can also factor in the culture piece. But it also is like the business development kind of showing where your projects are at and just other, you know, updates as well. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I wanna go back to something you were talking about a minute ago with uh you've mentioned that people need to find their story, which I've seen that before. I mean I kinda understand it, but I've also seen it's a pol it seems to be a little bit polarizing the topic, right? Um, especially when you talk to and let's be let's be frank here, I mean con contractors and you tell them, Hey, you gotta find your story. That may not come across very well to some crum contractors, right? Like that sounds a little I don't know the word, but like hokey comes to mind. So I mean, and I don't Yeah, so wha what you like tell me about that. Like, hey Jonathan, you're trying to get me to tell my story. This sounds weird. You know, what are you trying to do here? So talk me into this. Yeah, so it's interesting 'cause I actually haven't used the word story in a while. It's interesting that I felt compelled to say it here because that is in a sense what we are doing. But I realize from a marketing perspective, it's not for me, I realize I mean, I I've been married for over eight years now and I realized I could be saying all the right information to my wife that I want her to hear. But if it's not communicated in a wor in a way that she'll digest it, then it's just going in one ear and out the other. So my thing is how do I communicate this in a way that gets her to be like, okay, I'll engage this topic. And in the same way, that's typically the approach I'll take with contractors. So instead of saying, Hey, we need to tell your stories, things like that, my question is, do you want more business development opportunities? Or do you want to make business development easier? Or hey, do you want more talent? Do you d do you want to pay less for recruiting fees? You know, things like that. It's like, yeah. Okay, cool. Well so th the path that we go about doing that is being able to share your thoughts, your ideas, your perspectives, opinions, your takes on the industry. And, uh And when we do that and and we I and I do have proofs of concept because I remember years ago I did a spotlight of I think it was like ten plus executives who were doing this. And when I've talked to them each individually, like offline, they're like, yeah, this has opened the door to talent, to business opportunity. Like they would literally list off all these things. And I'm like, the playbook, like the proof of concept is there. And so I'll typically m package it in that way. It's like, hey, if you want to improve business development or make it easier for yourself. Um or if you wanna make, you know, if you wanna attract the right talent, even if you don't need them now, but when it comes time and you say, Hey, we're hiring, look for this role and actually have it make a difference and not just put it out there and have it die away like most people in the industry, then we need to start sharing like your thoughts and things like that. So I'll typically refer to them as thoughts or thought leadership, um, words that I think may resonate a lot more. Um, but I actually don't say I actually don't focus on the mechanism in which we use t to talk about Hey, how to get these outcomes for business development or talent acquisition? I say, Hey, do you want this? This is the path that I've known to be the most effective within industry. Both I'm doing it now with with contractors as well as I've seen it proven out with other individuals. I'll use Bob, you know, Clayco as an example. I'll use other stories that I've heard, you know, uh within the industry and even outside of the industry, but industry adjacent that have opened so much so many doors as a result of them sharing their thoughts and ideas and leadership and lessons and failures and all that sort of stuff on LinkedIn. So that's typically how I approach it. But when I look at it, when I think about it, all I'm doing is just sharing stories or their experience. Like that that's all I'm doing is just like a and it's not your entire story, it's just little snippets of parts of your story. It's like for example, there's one we just released where it was like they were talking about how Um There was a certain software that they purchased. This is like a material supplier. They they they invested, I think it was over six figures into the hardware and software for this whole thing. And when they rolled it out, their entire ticketing system and way to like charge for the materials that they were moving broke. And so then eventually from there, what did they do? They ended up ripping everything out within that same day and going back to their old software. and And like for me that's just that's a story. Like that's just and but it's interesting because the the whole point of the story is saying, Hey, leaders at the top make mistakes and here's mine. Uh instead of approaching it like, Hey, I have everything, you know, everything's going good, business is good, family's good, life is good. Like I feel like if if you want to see all that sort of content, go to Instagram because everybody's just showing a a a of how. great their life is. But my thing is like we as humans we're incredibly compelled by people who share the hardships about business or life or the industry or making mistakes, things like that. And but that All that is is just. collection of stories that you're sharing. And so uh I I think it's a great observation that you make. Like, how do you tell them to tell your stories? Like, I don't think I agree. I don't think that's a compelling angle for me to to to say, hey, do this because we want to tell your story. I don't care about I I don't my story doesn't even be told. Hey, do you want business development and talent acquisition to be easier and better? Yep. Okay, cool. This is the pathway to do it. Yeah. Well, and I mean it makes sense because I mean our whole lives are a I mean, whatever we want to call it story or not, but that is what our whole life is, is we can think back to a point in our career and I mean I'm an engineer, but I have these these stories that that are stuck in my mind of I will never do this again because this happened, right? I mean Like you're never gonna not go through an interview and make sure this person is capable of designing a beam again because you did that already. And I may not specifically call somebody out or anything like that, but I'm I mean, it's a story that's stuck in my mind or the way that my boss treated me when I first started out. And it's like that impacts how I treat other people that work for me. And so, like how would you how would you draw out a story that I could then Or I forgot what you c how you phrase it, but this path, right? How would you draw that out so that I could then either write it myself or that you could help me write it for me? How would you go about that? Totally. And and just a quick thing before I answer that 'cause they really got me thinking 'cause I was just talking to another fellow over on the East Coast maybe about an hour ago before before we hopped off here and it's interesting 'cause this individual has his estimator, chief estimator, senior estimator for large like large whether it's national or even international, global construction br firms and it's interesting because he's like You know, he basically he's like I've Held this thought. I've never posted a thought about it. He's like, but I honestly believe that if you want to be a great estimator, you need to come from the field. You need to have boots in the ground field experience. And then he talked about he's there's some people who just come right out of college and he's like, I like I'm not downplaying your experience things like that, but there's just something different about going on site, you know, uh hearing all the construction sounds, smelling all the smells that you smell and like you know, all just experiencing that it allows for you it it what what what is typically a digital experience for a estimator now is now actually something tangible and real, my mind right away is like that needs to be that will that thing will blow up. I already know the formula and what it would take to get there. And so my thing is like exactly with with what you're saying. But for example like For you uh so so maybe I'll start here. How long have you been posting content on LinkedIn? Okay, two years. And what do you typically post about? Well, I mean, you've probably seen some of my stuff. I mean, I I sort of post about I I like have a framework that I use. I mean meaning I I I tend to do Monday is a certain thing and Tuesday is a certain thing. But like Monday I just post about a job I did, for example. At some point. Either it's a looking forward or a looking back. So it's just either something we have on the boards or something we did and I just talk about it and I I try to find that interesting aspect of the job. So like yeah, this one is really cool because it's on Spring Island or yeah, this one they yelled at us because we were late or there was something interesting like it's that interesting aspect of it, you know. So I try to bring that gem out and then right put that as my like number one. Like don't ever, you know, be late on a job 'cause you'll get yelled at, you know. So that might be my first line, you know. So but that's the type of stuff. But I always try to put a f I call it a fluff post, but amusing, if you will. So it might be a total personal p story that is like, you know, you know, just a total personal thing. You know, but usually even my personal stuff has a twist to it. So like I might put ballroom dancing and then I'll say, you know, come dance with me. You know, come dance with me 'cause you know, it's just it's just fun, a fun way to say like You know, I'm not just a guy who crunches numbers. I'm somebody who has a life. It's just to show them I have a real life, you know. Totally. Th yeah, th that you're really human being and it makes sense even too 'cause this estimator fellow I was talking to, he's Yeah, sometimes estimators are just seeing his heads down, just, you know, look at the numbers and then that's it. It's like, no, no, there's there's there's a little bit more to the individual than just than just that. But my question for you it that follow up and that maybe I'll be able to give more direction this way is who is your who are you writing for? So like when you're creating this content, who do you specifically have in mind? So I I try to my my number one client is architects. So that's who I you know, we wanna work for really high end architects. That's that's who we want to work for. So if you're higher end architect, hire us. No. but this is the enhanced this is the enhanced podcast brought to you by twenty ninety six. So I don't mean to I'm just kidding, of course. But anyway, so that that's who we write for. But um at the same time, what I found, which you probably have found too, is that you have sort of a a secondary audience that because I'm an engineer and so actually my my primary audience is actually engineers, you know. Because, you know, I think I've been doing this for a long time and you know, if I say something it usually comes with some weight and people are like, man, or I'm I it's like insights that I think I find basic. I'm like, you don't know that? You don't know the difference between grout and concrete? Like, you know, so I wrote a post about that. I'm like, don't call it concrete, you know? It's not concrete. There's a difference, you're right. And so, um but my point is that I get a lot of m so it's a secondary audience, but but but architects is who I really want to to get work from and get a a building of an audience of. Yeah, and the reason I ask that, you know, 'cause especially too when it comes to like, you know, overall approach when when we're working with individuals, like we're not just looking to just tell any story. My biggest thing is to what's your goal on LinkedIn? Is like is it the business development side as you're saying and trying to position yourself as a as a leader in this space with even within your own industry as an engineer or your own niche or domain? Or is it the industry at large just being a kind of more broad just thought and I think we identify that then I figure out specific because the thing is like What an engineer finds interesting is probably not gonna be what an architect finds interesting. And I know that because for years I'll and I still post about social media, but I remember for a while like I was things were good and I was talking about social media construction. Like, okay, well, what does my audience actually want to hear? Like wha like specifically the people I'm trying to target. And so instead of just focusing on social media, which is 'cause mainly 'cause that's I care about. That's the thing I want my audience to care about. But what if they're like, I don't really care, Jonathan? I'm like and especially my target audience. But I realized once I started posting, especially too with this construction CEO, to be in the executive for a a construction don't know, you know, the weight of payroll for you know s you know tens or sometimes hundreds of employees like all that sort of stuff but when I sit down I realize I get the all these sort of things and I try to find a way content that resonates with those specific decisions. And I mean some posts popped off and even too I think I can't remember what it was years ago. It might have been talking about like you know just the the G C contractor dynamic and just how sometimes people are toxic that relationship can it's not always true. And I remember that that was how to me 'cause like, hey, I really resonate with how you, you know, said I had nothing to do like I wasn't selling social media, I wasn't I was just sharing general thoughts that customer and they resonated with likely what they did was go on my page, hey who is this guy? interesting. Okay, he does social media. Okay, cool. Well I'm gonna reach out and see if you know See if he can help us. And so that's depending on your goal, that's probably where I would start first, is what are you trying to do at the end? day and also to because like the way I suggest. You know. This is. You want eighty percent of your content to be geared towards what your goal or like what you want to be known for and specifically what your target audience is. And then you can give yourself like a twenty percent buffer for like you're saying those personal stories, maybe other like maybe that is where you throw in some engineering stuff here and there, especially for your followers, things like that. but the reason you wanna do that is because what sometimes can happen is if you muddy if you try to be all things to all people or just throw stuff things aimlessly, people won't be like won't think, Andy, engineer, like I'll think like I've seen Andy, I'm not entirely sure what he does. That's the last thing you'd you'd want that you you want people to write away association. Like for example, for me I've posting about social media for years now. It's like constant social media construction. That's that's the trying to From there I'll add other you know, obviously promoting the podcast which is not is about social media marketing like that and I'll talk about other thoughts. But that's what I'm b wanna be known for. Because otherwise it's just easy to especially with how much cost. It's just easy to just get kind of. jumbled in that versus no, I know who this individual is because they talk about this regularly. They own this specific th vertical. Yeah. I mean that makes sense. You can you can get some and the nice thing is we're we're have a parallel thing, of course, obviously being an AEC, but also I mean we have a podcast and I I interview my main focus is architects, you know, but I wanted it to be an AEC generic podcast but but with an a heavy emphasis toward architects because of what I just said. Um but I I think what you just said makes a lot of sense because I can take that knowledge And those ideas and say, hey, this is what you know Cooter Ramsey said about um about architecture and and I can or I can reframe it in my own way. I'm like, I'm not an architect, but this is what I think is architecture. So maybe I should really focus more on that type of thing, you know, as opposed to just this is how you design a beam, right? Yeah, yeah, well 'cause I at the the day I realize, you know, pe people do b they like, know, and trust they don't necessarily go to the person that knows the most or is the most knowledge they just trust you and I wanna do business with you as a result, whether you're the best or and so my thing like how do I like and I made a post about this a few weeks ago and this day is like at a people really only care about themselves and think about themselves. And this broad blanket statement, so I'm sure that it's required. But even for me, I'm going on LinkedIn selfishly to one help more people get and work with more contractors or companies that I'm that I'm trying to target. Or two, I'm trying to learn something. I want to get better. I want to get better at my role. I w I wanna I wanna be on the cutting. Kind of focused around me. And so the the point of the post made it saying hey if everybody comes in on because they have they want to get out of it then make your content especially for They're like, man, I like this guy because he's he's about them. but you're you're you're the one who's ends up being sort of um that and so even for me like I'm I'm and like keep in mind I've been doing this for six plus years now and I'm learning and like I'm okay, I need to adjust here, adjust my strategy, tweak things here and there because I do have the tendency, I'm like, okay. I wanna you know, I wanna talk about what I wanna talk about. It's like, well, as your ego here and you and you want all this attention, or is it because you genuinely want to be a helpful resource and value to your audience, those that you want to work with? And those are filters that I'm go through because I mean I mean Jonathan's ego definitely gets in the way of a lot of things and I'm like, okay, I have to constantly check that. Really I'll go through my content calendar and even to check every post before I post I work I batch content when I create it but when I go come to post'cause I'll manually post it myself. I'll read it again. Nope, not gonna post this. Um this is not helpful. this is time I was super motivated and encouraged, but now I'm like no that that doesn't have legs anymore. That doesn't it might have been a good rant or whatever, but and sometimes I s I'll still do them, but in this case it so I have that content filter uh from a content perspective. Yeah, I mean that's a fun thing to talk about because I've been on both sides of that. It's like, yeah, this just didn't this didn't this isn't provide any value. Or maybe I did post it and I like, Man, I shouldn't have posted that. It really didn't help. And then of course you don't get much views anyway, so it sort of works out. But but then also there are times when I really feel like, man, I really don't want to post this, but that's the one you gotta put you need to post. Have you ever had that happen before? Like it was the one that y you didn't really want to post it 'cause that f like you mentioned the fear factor or whatever earlier. So but that's the one you need to post because people need to s hear that or they need to see that. See s so it's interesting so I I totally get what you're saying. The problem with me is I have, talk a lot and I want to talk a lot. So like it's funny because I I I want to say a lot of th I mean if I could post ten times a day and one hundred percent algorithm doesn't like that, not twitch down and so my thing is throw as much stuff as I can out there and see what sticks. Um so I I I maybe initially when I first started there was for sure some fear, okay, what are people gonna think? I'm like if you've never posted on social media and I think people especially too for your first post, people are more supportive and forgiving. because typically gonna be more probably a more impactful post. But then from there it's like, yeah, th there's a reason why, you know, we have a small audience or I had a small audience was because I was just starting out and, you know, luckily I had the training like luckily I had a small audience. Luckily I don't have all these in my face with a bigger audience ah now, I'm not content consistently. and so I I think with that piece is yeah it I I there's a lot of things I want to say. If anything, I have to roll things back. I literally have to because there's poking the bear. I also know I get bit too. Um but I just love doing you know personality. I'm not sure why it's created, but but the the and and I understand there are Not everybody's like you like me and honestly he here's the other thing I've realized is I probably piss people off too, or people will probably be Hey, I'm never gonna do business with him, he's annoying, all these sort of things, and I'm totally co because there's you know, there's enough business out there, you know, for them to find the right person for them as well as me hopefully work with people who are like minded. But that if anything I have to I have to practice more wisdom and caution um and creating guardrails than I do like, you know, nudging myself towards posting it, so Yeah, fair enough. Well, I definitely c cannot relate to that as much. I mean I it's every every time I post it takes I mean it takes a lot of I mean it's less each time I think, but it takes a lot of willpower to to hit that post button for me and I'm I'm a post you've done? Like where you're like, oh like I don't know like you remember the topic or the theme or remember what the post is about? So I there was a couple real posts meaning like um they they were just they were just real and I was 'cause I felt like I can't really post some random thing about a project or whatever today because I just like I just fired somebody or I didn't s I didn't come out and say that in that way or like we're having some cash flow problems and that's real. You know, that's what's going on. So it seems like that's what I should talk about, you know? And I post every day. So whatever's going on, like one day I had a this wasn't hard to talk about, but one day I had a a grandchild. Like I had a my my son had a kid, so I posted about that. That was easy to post about, but it the point is there are days when you just post about what's happening and maybe you go off of the batch posting thing or whatever. Yep. But um and that's what I do and so like I'm like This was a bad day and some days are bad, you know, like some days you just have to have conversations with people that are hard and you hope you made the right decision and anyway that was one of the hardest ones and the one about the cash flow was pretty hard and um it was actually good because I got a couple of clients up. No joke. Why? You know, and that was the thing. I never thought I've never really gotten too many architecture clients, but I've had some other colleagues that through that post and through a few like that have said, you know, you're going through a rough time and I actually need help and you've you know, I've got a team and so it I think being real is the best solution. I mean, you don't wanna be like weird, right? But you wanna be real. And so there's a balance there. It's like you're going right up to the edge. Like I'm not telling you my dark secrets or anything. I'm just saying, like, hey, I had a tough conversation today. And I might I might share some I might um in indicate what that is a little bit, but you know, I'm not going crazy, you know, intimate on that or anything. So but it's just it's sharing the realness of business and engineering and um stuff like that. I think that's what that's what's it's social, you know, and Like I l I watch a lot of people like you and obviously, you know, Gary Vee has a lot to say about these things and you know, he says like j people are people. So architects are people, engineers are people. So guess what? They're interested in what I'm interested in. I like to run. So post about running. Not not every single day, right? Yeah. But I don't know, that's what I think. But I don't I mean, that's one reason that um I had you on is I thought other people might benefit from hearing what you think about posting. So I mean, do you think I'm out to lunch or do you think do you agree? I mean, what do you think? So I at the end of the day Andy can do whatever the he wants. And that's the beautiful part, especially to even with your business. Like I was talking to a business owner yesterday and it's just like he kinda lost control of a business mainly 'cause he just let You know, people... and the like he let a lot of external factors just kinda control what it was. He's like, No, I realized I'm like, this is my business and I came into business because I I I genuinely believe I have something to offer and say and have a certain way of working and things like that and that attracts people also. if that repels people, that's cool too. And I just think at the end of the day, like regardless of the see for me as a marketing guy, I'm looking through the lens of like what will produce the results that you want. And what's the f you know, whether it's the fastest or more m most efficient way to get from point A to point B. But at the end of the day, I like like I said, I'll I'll include some personal stuff here and there. I probably you know like for example, like, you know, I just uh I didn't post about this piece, but I posted that my wife was pregnant with her first child last year. And we welcome my my first boy in this new year and and it's awesome and it's great and All right. Thank you. Yeah, and it's it i it's uh lack of sleep for sure, but you know we're we're we're making it out and but i and so I agree, like I do think that there is that factor. But and so I I I think I d also think that there's no one way to skin a cat, but like for example, like even with the Gary Veece He was known as the wine guy. Like he owned a specific domain. Like when he first started out, he's a wine library, wine, wine, wine. That's what he was known for. He was running that company. He was creating content about wine, all these sort of things. And then little by little eventually graduated or matured into more, you know, the the agency, the media side, now a public speaker, all these sort of things. But I just realized those that really just own it own a specific domain and niche and just become the best or mo at least maybe not even the best. just the most helpful within that specific vertical tend to eventually open up more and more opportunities. And so that's why for me, I'm like, I see that proof of because like, I mean, even too, you look at Amazon, it's the store for everything. But what did they start off for selling? They started off selling books. That was it. Like and it makes sense as a business decision because they're like, what has the most SKUs in the world? That's books. There's endless amount of books and like, hey, if we nail the infrastructure for this, we're going to be able to open this up to everybody else. And so my thing is like I want start small, really own that and then allow for that whether you want to allow for that to open more doors or you know, then you go from there. And so that those are the typical examples that I, you know, go to and 'cause like I said, right now I'm doing this. I don't know what this construction CEO may open up a different door or maybe something broader within not just construction, maybe AEC or maybe a completely different industry, maybe commercial real estate. I don't know. I just know I want to like I don't wanna be all things to all people. I wanna be known for one thing and be really good at it myself and then have that hopefully open the doors to other opportunities and then just take it from there. And if it doesn't, that's totally cool too. I'll continue along the path. It's working and just add more fuel to the fire. The other thing I was gonna say too with the stories piece, like something like to to consider because there are those bad days. I mean, I'm a I'm a business owner as well and you know I'll go through definitely tough, hard parts and an easy way to be able to talk about Um. failures and things like that is after the fact. So like sometimes it might not even be a few days or weeks later, maybe months later you'll talk about it. Like and but you just save that idea saying, Hey, I want to talk about this. That way one, especially too if it's firing somebody, you know, hopefully like that individual's, you know, landed somewhere and things are going good and things like that. And, you know, um it just doesn't seem like 'cause even too in those moments on on those tough days, I just know I'm like These are, I probably should. say anything or you know, it it's like when I'm upset with my wife, like th I probably shouldn't say anything right now because I'm gonna cause more harm than I will good. And s and so and so for ex so the reason I say this is because I was I was fired by a client, I think it was maybe a year and a half or so ago um for something on social media and it was and and but I have a post coming about that now and for the long like uh th there was definitely like a lot of um you know uh it was interesting just like me and my it's interesting because me and my wife were doing like marriage counseling and I was literally going right into a session and two minutes before I get this call and he and he tells me and I'm just like, Oh shoot, here we go and it's interesting 'cause it was like six or seven months later they came back. Um and so for me I'm like, okay, cool, that's a you know, that that that's a really cool story. And then even till now, like it's a good partnership now and stuff like that. But man, did it did it suck? Especially too like just going into like I I'm trying to make this c marriage counseling session just helpful for both of us and I was just like I was out of it. I'm like, I'm not here right now. You So don't answer the phone two minutes before Mary's counsel. That's the key to that one, right?'Cause I mean it might be a good news or it might be bad. It it it might y you never know, but you know, when the client's calling I g you know, I I typically wan you know wanna wanna pick up right away just to make sure everything's all good. Yeah, that's true. So I don't know. I I'll let you decide. But um so what's yeah, I guess I should probably bring this in for a landing, but um what's one thing that I mean I I we've really talked a lot about social media. That's your thing in construction. So um maybe I wanna work with you or maybe I just wanna do it on my own. I mean w like I'm I'm nervous about posting or I'm I don't really understand what to do. I mean, how do I start? I mean, do I even I guess a better way to start is do I even need to do this? It sounds like a waste of time to me. So do I need to do it and then where do I start? Yeah, I ah this is a a decision I had to make years ago like maybe a year or two ago was especially for social media, is my goal is to not convince people who don't like social media or hate social media or don't want anything to do social media to leverage social media. Like for me that just seems like an uphill battle. Like it's just it's never gonna happen. My goal is to one, hopefully help the people that are maybe on the fence or maybe are like Maybe you're not g n not a hard no, but you're also not like a yeah, I'm gonna do this and my goal is to just to add more context and color and things like that. And so like what I'm gonna and so I say that to say, like if if you're complete like this is out of the you know, never gonna do this, cool. Like i and and and I think the good part is there's a lot of businesses out there that exist with no social media. and so that that proof of concept is there. But my thing is for for individuals who um the AEC and I think this applies, yeah, to all architects, engineers and contractors is especially too with how much work and things like that and even wha whether it's how much or how little work or you know just a private market right now is kind of is kind of interesting. It's and it's becoming more and more competitive. Being top of mind is incredibly valuable. And it's interesting, just because you did a project with a client, you know, the last time doesn't mean that they'll get you again for this one or they may forget or priorities may change. Somebody else may hit their radar and be like, Cool, let's give it a shot with this company this time. Like my thing is I think there's immense value to be able to stay top of mind and be remembered. Um, even if your content isn't the most polished or clean or perfect, my thing is like from a business development standpoint, I think it it it serves to Stay top of mind. Now that's kind of level one, so just get started. But two is like once you actually start adding more substantive, you know, value, whether it's your insights, whether it's like you were saying, like maybe some project, you know, recaps, things like that. I think that can be uh incredibly helpful, especially if maybe this you project was a little bit more unique or maybe the scale was a bigger or things like that, you want to spotlight that just to show your capabilities, you can do that. you know, there's obviously the culture piece as well. And then think the other thing is like the yeah, the lessons, but the failures, I mean uh were but like the the reason I kinda did a like kind of a a sly remark to Instagram is because that's how a lot of people, you know, post content is like, hey, I have everything together, everything's good, vacations, family, they ever like the reality, especially too for business owners and and not not even for only business owners, people in general. Like we're all going through something whether whether we want to accept it or not. And I think it's incredibly refreshing when somebody quote unquote leads with their weakness, leads with the thing that they don't want to share, but end up sharing it because there's likely a lot more people that will resonate and then even to some will who will love you. And you're a perfect example, Andy. You're willing to put yourself out there where it actually drove business. Like for me, I'm like, my word, like that's if we need a better case study, like we have you in this podcast to confirm that that's exactly what happened. Now those stories come few and far between. And so you don't want to manufacture or, you know, s do something like you still want it to be, you know, authentic and real, like I said, not weird. Um, but when they come up just sharing that. And I I I realize in general like um we need more authentic content and real content, especially with AI now, you know. Um completely flooding the market. And so that's my biggest thing. And and the last thing is like if you're worried, here's the thing I two things I will say. One of them is 'cause there are people who are completely terrified about posting content and that's complete was me for the longest time. and not to say it doesn't creep up here and there. It definitely can. But the biggest thing is I realize if I share my story or lead you with my story, nobody can say that was that didn't happen or that's not true. Like nobody can say that 'cause you're the one who lived it. And so if you start from that position, uh you let like you could still probably get haters. I mean, honestly, I think on LinkedIn there's less people than there than there are on other platforms. But nobody can take that away from you. And I think the same thing too, e even too when it comes to social media, 'cause sometimes people feel the need to teach on social media, don't teach. Just share what you know, share your experience, share your thoughts. Don't teach. Don't feel the pressure to teach. Just share that and you'll be good. And that's what even too. Sometimes I'll be on podcasts or have conversations. People will ask me about things and I'll like, I honestly don't know. Like if you were asking me about technical SEO right now, I'd be like, I understand the basics, but I'm probably the wrong person to respond on this. And so my thing is just stay if you stay in your lane, share your stories, experience, even thoughts, you'll be good. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. It's uh I forgot the terminology for that in terms of but the idea being you know, you're basically saying this is what I don't really know about SEO, but here's what I do know is I've posted this one post and I got like a lot of impressions. A lot of like so if you fall if you follow this advice, like I was gonna ask you about the hot topics, can so if you don't mind, we let's hit that one briefly. What are what are you know, one or two of the ones that you're like, hey, if we really want to pop off something, you know, let's go into this. Do you have something like that that you can share? One hundred percent. I think and I say this because I've mentioned this a few times. It's come up on a few construction CEO podcasts. But work life balance. There's a hot topic. When I talk to guys... and then two, then they're like, Okay, yeah, I understand, but like especially to one, as a business owner, especially in this industry, which is variables and things constantly moving and shifting, like Yeah i okay, you can sign off at five, but y you're you're you're gonna you're gonna have a a a a pretty bad morning when you wake up and see th and so now uh I understand everything needs nuance and things like that, but I do think that work life balance is a hot topic, mainly because construction executives leaders I mean, this is probably not just construction executives. This is executives, leaders across the board have their own thoughts on it. And then also too, the next generation Gen Z and even two my millennials like me, or you know, Gen Alpha in the future, once they start working, like we need work life balance and it's interesting because I've I I'm sure I I'm not sure if you've heard this statement. but I love it a lot. And it's basically it's like, you know, It it refers to men, but I don't think it has to be necessarily geared towards men, but it's like, you know, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times and then it just it just creates this sort of cycle and I think, you know, it's been especially too prior to COVID, I mean, things were booming with construction. I mean, there's a lot of things just going on. Is the market at least up here in the Pacific Northwest, we were Crane City, like And now it's barely like there's not a lot of work. Things are drying up. It's kinda flat. People are worried about recession. Potentially recession or you know, who knows? It's interesting because it's these times where like I think the thing I like o like about uh construction is it's we roll your sleeves up and let's get to work, let's figure this thing out because you know, uh nothing's guaranteed and I think during good times that's where we're like, yeah, let's You know, let's celebrate this and do all that. And I don't think those things are inherently bad, but when it becomes when times become tough and start making cuts and things like that, like no, we need to keep the shi like ship afloat and this is what it's gonna require right now and so I think that's one topic I think another topic which I'm sure you probably have your own opinions or thought thoughts are on you know, for construction it's construction management graduates. I'm sure for you it'd be I don't know if it'd be civil engineer graduates or things like that, but just like the the book knowledge versus the boots on the ground on you know, knowledge and that gap and I think there's a lot there within that topic. But I think there's a lot more. And keep in mind, not all topics have to necessarily be dis divisive or have a side things like that, but I just know if you it th those are those are buttons that definitely can be pushed and that can get engagement at a high level. So Yeah, that's good. Well I might I may steal a couple of those then for uh next week or tomorrow. Do it, do it. Yeah yeah. Post it tomorrow and see and and see but but but here's the thing is if you want a post because here's what sometimes can happen is people like want to cover all their bases and be like this person's like unfortunately if you want to get really good engagement you have to take a side it's like are you for it or are you against it? And why? And so that's where like 'cause if you just tee up the topic Maybe it might be something people might share, but if you take a side saying, Hey 'cause I literally eventually th this is actually a concept I wanna do is more short form video. So like similar to probably what you've seen online with like interviews of people of walking up to interview people, I wanna do that within construction and literally walk up and say, especially to the field saying, Hey, is work life balance real or is it complete BS? Yeah, yeah, that would be a good one. So a and so my thing is like there's all these 'cause people may have different thoughts and topics, things like that, but it's just like the the the the the angle or whatever is is is such a something that both sides of, you know, w regardless of w whether you're for it or against it or believe it or don't, I'm incredibly passionate about. And so that's w when you find that and you share your thoughts, um it's likely to get a lot of views. Yeah. Well and and the cool thing is you can go at it, you you can take a bit of a side with that, but you can still do the story angle. Meaning you can say, Hey, I don't know what you guys think, but I think work life balance is garbage because when it's f five thirty uh or whatever, you know, um, and I got a deadline, like we promised the client we would get this done and so There is no work life balance. We've messed up. We didn't finish the job. We gotta get this job out. And that's the work life balance that we're gonna Now, on the other hand, I I do believe in the idea that okay, well we work till eight o'clock, like can we cut cut out a little bit early tomorrow or something? So that's where the balance comes in, I guess. But anyway, I didn't mean to stir up that or you stirred it up. No, you're good. You're good. And and see that's what I'm saying. I think that's where so like from a from a psychological standpoint, what get you you want to hook the first sentence is like like you said, it's like, hey, I think work life balance is garbage. Like if you leave with that, I mean you're gonna get people to engage. And then what comes after is the nuance. It's like, hey, like sometimes like you know, if we commit to this and keep in mind that the like what is it? If we have to work later, if we miss it d this deadline or are almost gonna miss this deadline, hopefully the executive or leader will be like, How do we make sure this doesn't happen again so we don't have to stay t up till eight PM next time? Like, what did we miss in the our in the order of sequence of things or what we know? So hopefully you do that. That way you're actually r you know, being like running around like a chicken with your head cut off. Uh you're actually, you know, being proactive in that sense. But in certain cases will cause us to. to hopefully bend a little bit more in this capacity. Maybe Saturday morning you gotta wake up and just get a few things earlier. So that way hopefully your Monday's a lot more, you know, stress free and then you come in and you're ready for the week, things like that. And I I also think that, you know, depending on the aspirations too, ambition's a big thing. If you wanna be an executive, you likely a or leader of of a company or or or leader of, you know, other individuals in your company, you need to be willing to put more in than what you're currently being hired to do. Because that because uh otherw how are you gonna be able to level up to that next? And so that like I said, that's where the post creates a lot of a lot of dialogue. What will likely happen if you post a post like this it happens to me all the time. People say, you're you're dumb or this is stupid or all these sort of things and they don't read the rest of the post. And I'm like, you should probably read the rest of the post. That's where the c the context so that's not and me like I got your attention, I got you to comment, but you probably should have finished the rest of it to hear my general thoughts as to how I landed on that. And if for the people that do, some people will still disagree and be like, Hey, but I appreciate I you know, where you're coming from and your thoughts and things like that. Well one of the things I like about you too is y you don't have to go viral. I mean it's one of the things you talk about. Like you can get that's not the point necessarily. You mean you can get a few followers and I mean if you're especially if you're a big contractor, one client can make all the difference, right? Like I mean, do you agree with that or I mean absolutely I know you agree with that, but yeah, for sure. I I mean I I I wanna eventually make branded merch that says, you know, value over viral. Like I I definitely lean more in that way. I also do think that there is like, for example, this is something I tried a few years ago where I'm like, Okay, maybe I was getting five, ten, fifteen, twenty engagement, things like that post you know. But I realize sometimes it's not necessarily that I wanna go viral. I wanna talk about this big topic and then I realize that actually created the entry point for me to, you know One, get new followers that hopefully are ideal people that resonate with what I'm saying. And then two, hopefully maybe even shows who liked the post. So I can and especially too if they're a CEO or president or owner of these construction companies, I would literally have an excuse to now reach out to them, say, Hey, like thanks for liking my post, you know, things like that. Great to be connected, you know. And at least they know, yeah, that's that posted that thing. And at least, you know, now it's not like some cold person coming out of nowhere worried if what is this person gonna try to try to tell me? It's like, no, this person r I resonate with what they what they said and that created an opportunity for me to add them and whether I do business with them or not, that's that's to be determined, but at least I make that intro and make it easier for them to remember me. Yeah, awesome. Well Jonathan, this is the Enhance AEC podcast. I really like to find out why people you know, wha what are you doing to enhance the world around you? What's your why? Um it's it's speaking of hokey, it could sound a little hokey to some but but I d I do think that my vision is that people working in this industry are doing something that that's making the world better. So I I mean, what are you doing to help enhance the world around you? I think for me the biggest thing has been this construction CEO podcast 'cause like I said, I don't talk about marketing, I don't talk about social media, thought leadership. It's all literally just giving the microphone over to the executives who are building this company, employing lots of people, trying to figure out ways to improve the life for their employees and and serve their clients better. And I say this because th I would say I'm I'm sure the E side of AEC is similar to construction, but it's typically a more like heads down kind of like A little bit more private about you know, like you like we're not a uh an industry filled with YouTube and influencers and like that that's just not the way the industry is. But I do think that there is a story worth telling and and especially too as I've been posting this these the this podcast I'm actually only posting on on YouTube with that same reason of I'm trying to figure out you know how to crack the code and and grow that but it's interesting somebody out of d uh Texas, this contracts manager, large contractor, you know she messaged me, she added me, she's Hey, I saw your podcast. It came on my YouTube feed. And I'm like, interesting. She's like, I really resonated with this and this and I'm glad that these things are being said. And so my biggest thing is there is I'm realizing and I've done this in the past. Um I I I don't want like an ulterior motive with this podcast. I genuinely want to have conversations with executives about their business. Eventually too, I want to weave in life 'cause I know, you know, there's a lot of hard things with like being a parent. growing kids, you know, whether it's babies, whether it's, you know, kids or, you know, um teenagers or, you know, well obviously once they've graduated, you know, then they're kind of off to themselves. But just that whole process, even struggles, I think there's things like, you know, leaders at the top have to carry a lot. There's maybe addictions. I haven't gotten to that point yet. B I haven't been bold enough to go down that rabbit trail. But I do think that these are topics that eventually hopefully will be helpful, mainly just to start the dialogue. The same way we're talking about maybe it's mental health or maybe it's women in construction, things like that. I think there's a lot of things too for leaders that they're carrying on their shoulders a lot. And it's like, hey, how do we just talk about these things openly and just get it out there? And I think if anything, hopefully it one, for the industri for people in the industry are employees, it just humanizes the executive, saying, Hey, yes, he's the boss, he's the executive, he's the CEO, he's the one leading. He's a human just like you and me. He puts on his pants the same way everybody else does and i and I think that's sometimes a disconnect. So there's that piece. And then the other piece too with regards to the industry, like some of the short form video content ideas that I eventually want to do. Um I wanna show that the the the the industry is is not this boring, lifeless, you know, is a disconnected and it's like, no, there's a lot of really interesting, fascinating, interesting people in here and I just want to spotlight that. And so that's ultimately what I'm doing from my end, both from an executive standpoint, you know, talking to executives on my podcast, as well as hopefully too down the line, maybe interviewing, talking to project managers. That's just trying to just like I love creating content and I love the excuse to create content and have conversations. And my thing is like How do I take an industry like I said is very private and kind of to themselves and just open that and open that door wide, both for our own industry so it feels more collaborative and bigger and things like that. And also do for those who are from on the outside looking in like, Hey, I think I might want to join this industry. So, yeah. Man, that sounds like an exciting vision and exciting podcast too. So um We'll have to go check it out. And yeah, today was definitely a lot of fun, Jonathan, um, as well. And but speaking of work life balance, um we both have to to balance that out I guess. But this has been a lot of fun. But I just wanna give you an opportunity to share, you know, how do people find you and is there anything el I guess first of all, is there anything else you wanna leave the audience with today. Yeah, I think the the the the biggest thing, like like I said for me, when it comes to social media or marketing or personal brand or all these words that could very well go in one ear out the other is don't focus so much on the the mechanism, focus more on the outcomes that it can drive, whether it's business development, talent acquisition, increased brand awareness, um differentiating from competitors, positioning yourself and strongly in the market. Like look at those things and then see how those social media, personal brand, marketing things can help you accomplish that because it has for me and it and and I'm still finding ways to continue to add more fuel to the fire so it grows. Look at it from that perspective. Don't look at it from a hey, I need to do social media. I need to check the personal brand box. I need to check them like because otherwise you're just you're just doing activities with no underlying goal. And so my my suggestion for you is figure out what is it that you're trying to accomplish, whether it's in your business or in your career and figure out which of those mechanisms helps you go from point A to point B more faster and more efficiently. Now the last thing with like how to connect with me, I post content on LinkedIn. If you want to learn more about me, go on there. And if you're a leader or somebody within the A C industry and and maybe the part of the conversation around you know the personal brand piece, you've been on the fence or maybe you've post some content or maybe You You want some feedback on your content, things like that, feel free to reach out. I I realize that although, you know, I I typically hyper focus on construction, the principles of what I do within copywriting or marketing or psychology are universal um across the board. And so any way I can help, whether it's just sharing some thoughts or maybe there is a partnership there, feel free to reach out and I'll be happy to help however I can. Okay, awesome. And then what's the name of the podcast again? construction CEO. So if you go on YouTube type construction CEO podcast. If it's more helpful, sometimes I'm still trying to get it to rank on there. So i if it helps Jon Jonathan Corr and then construction CEO in the YouTube search bar and you'll find uh you should find me there. Yeah, okay, awesome. And hopefully we'll have Bob Clark on there soon. Yeah, let's do it. I'm looking forward to the finding out about that. Yeah, no I'll I'll definitely let you know once that happens. and sit. Shoot shoot for the moon, right? All right, well hey Jonathan. I enjoyed having you today. Thanks for being on. All right, take care. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhance. And please leave a like, subscribe, or follow, and we'll see you next time.