Okay. Hello Enhancers. Um, so on today's podcast we have I guess I don't know about because we haven't discussed it yet. Yeah. well this is gonna be Evan Troxel. Evan Troxel and what does he do? Well, he has two podcasts. One is T R XL and the other one is Arches Speak. Okay. So uh both have been successful and so I'm excited to just talk to him about obviously I'm hoping he'll give me some tips on podcasting. But we want to learn about mo more than that, of course, in terms of he focuses on architecture and technology. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I just want to find out different things from him about technology, especially in this in twenty twenty six, there's a few topics to talk about technology front. But also from a design standpoint, what some trends he's seeing in design and what some cool designers maybe he's talked to or heard from in the past few months. Yeah. What are you looking forward to? I don't know. That sounds like an interesting episode. I didn't know anything about it going into it, but it sounds like you're gonna have some good conversations. Yeah. Is there anything I should ask him? I mean, I think that you're probably gonna hit on AI. If I had to guess. It's not on the it's actually not on the list. Yeah, but you talked about like, you know, new technology and you know, whatever. I feel like it's gonna come into the conversation. It's sorta hard not to. But um I didn't put it on as a specific question 'cause I figured it would come up or He said I'm I'm done putting it as a question because it's actually gonna come up every time. Yeah. And also he's in the Pacific Northwest, we're in the southeast. So maybe that'll come up as a design as a topic. like some of the design. yeah, differences between being in the south and all of that. Yeah, so that that may come up too. So we'll see how it goes. I'm excited. Yeah. Hey everybody, welcome to the enhanced podcast. My name is Andy Richardson and this is Madeline, our producer. We've been doing this enhanced podcast for a couple of years now and we're still learning so much about people in the AEC and what their story is. Come check it out with us. Let's jump to the intro. you Welcome to Enhance, an AEC podcast, where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why. Hey Evan, welcome to the Enhanced Podcast. Thank you for having me. Great to be here. And I've got a I've got an opener question for you. I wanted to just kick it right off, which is based on your background and and what you do, the opening question I wanted to bring up was should architects today be focused more on design or technology? Ooh, design. I think design's gonna get us through the AI uh stuff that's going on, but technology is a tool, it's a lever, and I feel like it's the way that we deliver our projects now. So uh both, maybe? Both is the answer. Yeah. I mean it's not a right or wrong, it's it's your opinion and um I mean obviously you have a background in both. So um I kinda figured you would say something like that. Um, you know, but I I was just curious. are you seeing um that we are tilting one way or the other with our focus though? So the reason why I started with design is because that is what can truly differentiate architecture from buildings and the more technology and you can read into that however you want, if you want to replace technology with AI, becomes available to way more people uh then the process of Drawing buildings and specifying information and making sure that we're meeting code minimum is going to be a lot more automated, which then I think frees up an architect to focus more on design. And so uh that that's always been the actual differentiator of the value of an architect is what they can bring to the table, not just draw up a set of plans and make sure it meets code, but actually make great experiences for people. And so that's why I feel like That's what architects should be focusing on. And they need to be putting the technology in place to actually enable them to be able to do that so they can deliver better projects to their clients. Yeah. And and that's really not even a part of it that I was considering, which is the code, which is a huge part of I mean, I'm instructural, so that's uh seems like a huge part of what we do and I know architecture d depending on which f field of architecture can have more code heavy aspects, but all all aspects really should have some code driven things. And I mean unless you enjoy that aspect of it, some people do I guess. But even if you enjoy it, it does help to have a tool that can help facilitate that, right? And yeah. And help you do your work better. And that that like oh Peace of mind, right? Like like I think one of the things that especially a young architect, think about a young architect who just graduated and you they can do single family residential. You don't even have to be an architect, you don't have to have an architectural education, right? But I'm just kind of putting you know, thinking back. Um, if I had a tool to kind of assist me and to answer my questions and teach me along the way, uh that's I mean, that's going to be that is table stakes now. Fa anybody can access that. You don't have to be an architect. And so, um, y you should be leveraging that ability so that you get more experience under your belt even sooner. Whereas before I think a lot of times you're just kind of guessing or not sure of your answers, right, when you don't have the experience. Uh so I think, yeah, they should be definitely leveraging that. And I like what you said about the value that architect brings, which is um it was something like uh human experience, improving human experience. Um that's the value because it seems like more and more and and I'm coming at it from my angle, but it seems like more and more people are bringing AI to the conversation, like the the customers are bringing like Claude to, hey, I did this Claude thing. uh in terms of uh for for example, we had this this uh owner, this was a house we had done, and he's walking around the job site like, well Claude says this and Claude says that or whatever. And so it it's interesting, right? Like because or maybe I did chat GPT and I had this rendering done of this building. Right. So it sort of makes you wonder, okay, what what's going to happen um in terms of architecture. Um and w I think what you said is a big part of that, right? If we can sell that value. Yeah, I mean a lot of times the kind of thing you're talking about is just like the old days of people clipping images out of magazines, right, or going on to Pinterest and finding stuff that looked good. It kind of that something about it resonated with them. Um and then it turned into like you could download SketchUp. And so anybody could download SketchUp and start to throw together a model uh of of something that they were thinking. But the machine still doesn't understand space and quality and procession through space and light and I it gives you an image. It's still a two-dimensional image and that's going to continue to develop. It'll develop into creating a model from an image and stuff. But then the synthesis of integrating that with the code, integrating that with the actual site and the environment that that sits in and the exposure, you know, the orientation to the sun and all of those things. Mean there's so much nuance and depth to what an architect and a full consulting team brings to the table that isn't a linear process. Sometimes it's iterative, sometimes it's you know, it goes all kinds of directions except from beginning to end. I think a lot of people think it's very linear, but but the architectural design process is anything but linear. It it's has phases that are linear, but inside of those phases it's all over the place. And so uh I mean that that will continue to evolve. People will come with these things and say, I like this. And then it's our job to say, well, why? And then to actually bend that into something that can actually get built, but gives brings more value than just the surface level image of that. Right. And so architecture truly should function at a much higher level than just the function of the space. But we've watched this in the building industry for years, that getting whittled down to a baseline of cost, right? Cost is always important, but it's it cost and speed are kind of the driving factors. And so we see very dull buildings made out of very dull materials, and we're slowly whittling away that kind of experiential and aesthetic side of things. And I I'm not on the camp of just aesthetics for aesthetics' sake. But you can elevate the experience. We spend so much time in buildings and in the built environment. It should be beautiful. It should be experiential, I believe. And it doesn't always end up that way, but there's a lot of room for that still. And I think that's what architects are gonna be kind of, you know, they need to get themselves into the right place to advocate for that and and help clients understand that and then work with the clients who do. Yeah, it seems like we're losing an appreciation for design as a culture. Uh I mean, going to an older home recently um for for a project uh in Tennessee of all places. But anyway, the point is just the ornate detail and the ornate things, we were just looking at like a hinge on the door. just as a small example. And it had ornateness to the hinge that is gonna be closed. Right. It was like craftsmanship was was put into those kinds of things and it's just now what can you how many of those can you stamp out of one piece of metal is kinda the driving factor and how fast can I get them and how cheap can they be? Yeah. I and I just sat there, I took a picture of it, I I made a post about it 'cause I was like, that's cool to me. Yeah, you know, that somebody spent that kind of time it might have been handmade, I don't know. It might have been cast, but the point is that somebody thought, Let's make something really cool out of a hinge of a door, whereas normally it's just like let's do the cheapest possible thing like you're saying. So why are we losing such appreciation for design? Would you say I I I mean part of it is we live in a soci I I would say we live in a society of excess, right? We just have so much stuff and there's so much stuff that we're trying to take in all the time. It could be information, it could be things in the environment. Like driving down the street the other day and my my wife and I are in the car and it's just like just step back and say, like, is this okay? Like all these signs, all these wires, all this junk everywhere, right? It's just there's just junk. everywhere. And we have been slowly becoming more and more accustomed to that because it is our environment. And so that's a mental challenge. That's a physical and an aesthetic challenge as well. Um and and so I I feel like it's because at some level we bought the thing the idea that more is better instead of better is better. Right? You might you might better is better. Takes more time. It probably costs more money. But it has more longevity, it delivers more it like feeds more than just like I said it earlier, like that bare functionality aspect of things. Um but but it's in so many aspects of our lives. It it's the car you know, how many people own the Toyota Camry, right? Because like the mediocre version of all the cars boiled into one, right? It works for a way more people. And it's it's great. It does the thing, it's efficient, it but it's not Design, like it's not like truly design. It's not like the kind of thing you sit in, you're like this you know, but then you you give like a Porsche nine eleven to somebody and they're like, Okay, it's a it's more of a driver's car. You feel the road. I don't know. I'm just pulling ideas off the top of my head, but that's kind of the the idea that I get. Yeah. Well it's kinda like those guitars behind you, right? Right. Yeah. I mean you could have just had one but The right number of guitars, Andy, is N plus one. There's always room for one more. No, but it's like it's like you could buy a three hundred dollar guitar off Amazon and it would probably play just fine. Um but if you want, you know, uh something that has some something something to it, you know, it's like those intangibles to them. Um you're looking for something else and then you really have to pick up that guitar and you have to feel it and you have to hold it, you gotta play it and it's gotta feel right and all those things, or else it's not the right guitar. And uh and and those are f further and you know, there's they're they're farther away. They're they're harder to get. Um and there's something about that that's just part of the human condition that I think is slowly we're becoming more and more detached from that. Mhm. I don't know what that is, but Yeah, I'm actually picking up my first guitar. I'm actually going tomorrow to to go look for one. My first acoustic. I've I've been playing for about a year now, so I've been borrowing quote unquote my son's. So he he sort of alluded to the fact that I gotta get my own. So we're gonna go check out a few things. Very cool. Awesome. Uh anyway, so no, I I appreciate that and I do think, you know, as an example, the c I think the guitar is a great example because um you're sitting there, you're touching it, you're doing something that's n this detached from like traditional technology and that's part of I think what helps us appreciate some of these things more, you know. Even like you mentioned driving, you know, k drive let's turn off some of these technologies while we're driving down the road. and and sort of engage into the physical world some. But so I wanna move into little bit about your, you know, your podcasts. Um you have two of 'em, right? to to any Plus one, Andy. I've always got one more. Yeah. I'm I'm I I have two main podcasts. The f the one I've been doing the longest is called Archa Speak. It's been around since twenty twelve. Uh and it's it's about what it's like to work as a professional as an architect in the field of of architecture. And uh and then the the other one that I'm doing quite you know pr uh just as regularly, but I've been doing for six years now is is my last name without the vowels. It's Troxel, T R XL. And the TRXL, Troxel Podcast is about architecture and technology. And that that's more my focus as a professional in the architecture industry is is really helping people leverage technology and understand why we do what we do and and and the answer isn't technology. The answer is delivering architecture and going through that that process with people But using technology to to do that and and kind of the digital transformation that firms are dealing with um as they go from, you know, a lot of firms have been around a long time, so they've gone from the the hand drafting all the way to now now AI, right? Um and and then there's another podcast that I've done called Confluence and th there's a few others as well. So yeah, this is my main thing that I that I do now is is more on the archite AEC space, but very podcasting and YouTube and uh focused. Okay. Yeah, and I w I wanted to clarify that because um this is the first time we've met by the way. Uh so good to meet you. Sure. Um so we jumped right into it, but I so I because I did look at your LinkedIn a little bit and it it looks like this is your full time job as a is a media, podcasting and so forth. So um but you've you spent a lot of time in architecture as a as your career, technology and such and That was that was a big part of it, was the director of digital for for a major company. Um and so that's why I wanted to sort of get going on that question about design versus technology. Um, but then I I wanted to go into this next part about the the podcasting and uh explore some of the interesting topics that you've hit over the past, you know, few months or so, particularly if you had, you know, a is there been an interesting guest that you've spoken to? man, there's so many. There's so many. But I actually let me just go with the most recent episode. I spoke with one of the original members of the Revit team when Revit was acquired by Autodesk back in like nineteen ninety-nine, two thousand, something like that, two thousand two, I don't know. Um, and she is just an incredible person. The the c feedback I've received from this episode is like, wow, what an incredible story. I could like you can't even take in all the things that Tatiana Zambazova has done over the decades that she's been involved in AEC technology, but she has so many interests beyond that. I I wanted to call her a a polymath, you know, she's a Renaissance woman, uh, but she she was like, No, the the polymaths will get upset if you if you just say that. but uh just you know, because because my focus really, even though like the the veil the surface level is technology and architecture. It's really about the people behind the technology and what drives them. And I they are so optimistic and yet so grounded because technology adoption in architecture and engineering is very difficult in firms. It's people are hard headed. They they are lone rangers. We're all trained in school to solve every problem by ourselves. And once you figure out how to solve problems, you don't want to figure out new ways to solve those problems. You want to just solve those problems because there's always another problem on the horizon that you, you know, you've got to solve because that's the design process. And so there's always a deadline. There's always something challenging to figure out. And uh and so people who are passionate about that. um are are grounded in the, you know, the it's difficult and they're really optimistic about what technology can do in architecture. And so, you know, what makes them passionate about that? What's their story? What's their history in this space? Um, because there's a lot of people out there who are um, you know, architecture school trained us how to do three things. You could choose to be a designer, which is like one of the major training aspects of becoming an architect, project manager, or more of like a technical operator kind of a person. You know, maybe you're doing detailing on projects and you've got to make sure the water doesn't get through the facade, right? That's more of a technical architect. and and now that has exploded because of technology, because of um you know, specialization in the industry. You could be in sustainability, you could be in technology. Um, there's so many different aspects that you could choose to go into. And I'll you know, the technology side has always been thought of kind of as an afterthought or as a it's a it's a responsive, it's not proactive during the the process. And so as more and more people have delivered projects digitally, these technologists are much more inherently um part of the team, but the practice hasn't really evolved to put that forward. And so there's like what I call a lot of closet technologists out there. And so my my podcast is really about like surfacing the stories of how did people get to where they are as leaders in firms via technology. Um I I I recently hosted a panel discussion at at a A EC Tech Conference in New York City, and it was with people who had worked their way up from, you know, a low level position out of school through the technology ranks to become all the way up to CEO of a of a large firm. So um showing those pathways, telling those stories has been something really important to me and and the most recent episode is just a really great example of that. Yeah, awesome. I mean it's it's uh probably interesting just to see how um th this person, which I would have a hard time repeating that name, but Anya, how she it sounds like she was on the end of the spear with regard to Revit and I mean she was a part of their company. Yeah, and she's a and now she's leading AI at a a company who is developing new BIM software for the next era, right? So yeah, always been on the tip of the spear, but always been like m multifaceted and and and I like telling that story. It's because that's something we can have a deep, nuanced, long conversation. One of the reasons I love podcasts and making podcasts is because we get to have a conversation where neither of us really knows where it's gonna go. Um we're gonna kind of chase digressions and and let things unfold as they unfold through the conversation and by having interesting people on the podcast I get to have really interesting conversations and and make those available to anybody who wants to listen to them and and that's been a a very fun journey for me. Yeah. Awesome. yeah, so you talked about the implementation of technology, how it's really hard to do. Um, which I mean that's been a big part of your career, right? I mean, as far as helping people do that in terms of all the way back when that was your basic job, but then now you're still kind of doing that, I think, through the podcast, right? So why why is it so hard to implement technology. I mean, you alluded to some of those things, deadlines and such, but why is that r so hard to do? Yeah, there's there's old reasons and there's new reasons. Uh old reasons are people have deadlines, they've got stuff to do. It's hard to set aside time to learn new ways of doing things. And you don't always have somebody available in the firm to be telling other people that there's new ways to even do things, right? So part of it's kind of an exposure piece of the of the puzzle. And then like I would say the new version is there's just so much technology, no one can keep up. Right. And so it's like it's it's noise. Like signal is projects and deadlines. And noise is all of this other stuff that's going on. Um of course there's there's all there is useful information in the noise, but what is the filter you're using to get to that? So I I try to be that filter with my podcast for people who are interested in the evolution of their practice. Uh and Give those examples and kind of get to the substance of why it even matters. Um, because uh you know, a lot of people are just chasing tools and technology for tools and technology's sake. But going back to your original question, right, it's like, I give a crap about architecture. Like I love architecture. I'm passionate about architecture, and the purpose of what we do is architecture. It's not tools. And so tools are a means to an end. for us to evolve the built environment and make better environments for people. it happens to be the way that most firms do it nowadays, and so I want to help people bridge that gap. Yeah. I mean well, and that's how we started this conversation really was design versus technology. But um I think yeah, we we can't just hide in hide in the sand here. Um in fact, uh the producer who stepped away, but uh Madeline, she she said, Well, it it's not on the board I have a board here that has some questions and things, but AI isn't on there. I was like, Well, that's probably gonna come off. Um But we it's it's hard to avoid these technologies. I mean, think about like you mentioned Revit, um or even before that, hand drafting of course, but I mean think about trying to do our work now. I mean, we couldn't keep up if we had to do it by hand. I mean, we just nobody would hire us. So I think there's an argument to be made that you could be the anti technology, anti AI studio who does bespoke design work by hand and there will be a a an audience for that. There will be clients who want that. They want a crafted experience, you know, to go back to our conversation about craft and the door hinge, right? For example. But it's a small number, right? And and you y then you have the mountain to climb of how do you ev how do people find out about you being that person? w because there's so much noise out there. But I also feel like, you know, for for for most firms that's not the case. They're not trying to be that. They're trying to deliver projects and they're trying to raise the quality bar and they're trying to reduce the number of errors and and and and there's a lot of things in there. And technology has the ability to enable that for people, if they are you know, if they figure out how to play that game. And and My goal is to help people h figure out how to play that game so that they can deliver better architecture. Yeah. What are some interesting technology trends that you've been exploring on Troxel? Is that how you pronounce the podcast? Troxel? yeah, Troxel. And it's it's it's a lot about AI right now because it's on so many people's minds. And it's really about kind of reframing the AI. Again, not just f tools for tools' sake, not just you have to use AI, but but deeper conversations about ethics and governance and data and intellectual property and all of the things that kinda come along with you know, this has been a part of architecture for a long time. You have clients that you you can't host data on certain kinds of cloud servers, for example, because it's a government project. And so you have to protect that information. And so, you know, AI inherently, you know, for the most part, is hosted in the cloud and it's on somebody else's servers. And so um, you know, that's a big part of the conversation when it comes to these larger firms doing those kinds of projects is how can you govern that information so that it doesn't get out there potentially hacked and then used against somebody or or for whatever. So there's a lot of nuance to the conversation, I think, when it comes to that. But um, you know, I the the other big thing is just the explosion of tools and, you know, the new startups versus the incumbents who are slower to create new tools or enhancements versus the new startups who can move at a faster pace because they're smaller and they don't have all of the red tape involved that these larger bureaucracies do. Um and so they're coming up, you know, they're they're basically surrounding if you just want to use Revit or Adobe as the kind of the the industry uh stalwarts who've been there for a long time, who've created tools that have slowly built up over decades to become what they are today, versus a startup who can take a piece of what one of those software platforms doesn't do well. and and create a solution there. I mean if you take all those edge cases, pretty soon those incumbent companies are surrounded. Uh and so how do you deal with that as a firm? How do you deal with adopting new tools to do specific tasks um and and work that into your workflows and and uh you know it's it's a it's an ongoing conversation so it's it's ripe for a podcast like mine to take advantage of that and and always be kind of tracking what's going on, but also um just talking about the kind of the deeper level rather than just what's what's the new software out there that we could buy today. It's not really about that. It's more about all the other stuff that surrounds that in the practice of architecture. Yeah. Okay. so it's yeah, check out Stroxel and Archer Speak. Um but so how did you get into podcasting, Evan? over. Archispeak Podcast started twenty twelve from a conversation on Twitter of all places. When Twitter back then, I think I I s you know, it basically started up around two thousand six. We had built a community of of like minded architects on social media back in the day. And uh it it happened just through a conversation that spurred up over many months on on social media. Um The Troxel Podcast actually started when I was the director of digital practice at the firm. And I found it very difficult to f identify people who had information that would help me start a digital practice in a firm. And once I started to build that network by going to conferences and attending classes and just emailing people, asking questions, I was getting so many great responses and helpful people with great advice coming to me, I said, you know, I wish somebody would m make these of conversations available to everybody else. And then it turns out like, that's me. I guess I'm gonna do that. I already knew how to podcast at that point. I'd been doing it for, you know, six years or so at that point and seven years. And so it wasn't difficult for me to spin that up and create something. And I thought, you know, after ten episodes or something I was done. And it turns out I was nowhere near done. There's always somebody else to talk to and one conversation leads to another and referrals and um new ideas about things to talk about have shown up and now I'm two hundred and thirty-something episodes on that podcast. So it's really grown over the last six years, but it came out of kind of uh just a desire to help other people do what I was doing. It was like I just chose myself as like the target audience a few years earlier. It was like what would help me a few years ago and started doing that and it's turned into that now for the Troxel Podcast. Yeah, what what has been some of the big uh w wh what do you think has helped people the most from your podcast that that has come from some of these interviews? think it's ultimately about building a network of people all over the world who know like it's important to know who the people are who you should reach out to and connect with. Um and who are the characters in this part of the industry. Um so I would say it it kind of goes back to the people side of it. There's real people solving these real challenges and f presenting different ways to do it. Because there's not just one way to do it, right? Every firm's got a different culture and a different leadership makeup and the way that they implement their technology and um things like that. So I think it's very good just to get all of those different points of view from people and and come up with your own plan and and build I've built the network over the years to help people do that and reach out to the right people and be able to ask them questions and and it's just uh I think it's it's it's just made it easier. I think for people to do this kind of transformation in their industry because a resource like this exists now. Yeah, mean it's not like they have their own director of digital transformation that that that's that they can just go and l listen to on the podcast, right? I've had directors of digital transformation come to me. They're like, I'm in this role, what do I do? And it's like, okay, because I've been there, done that, I guess, in in one way. Um but but it really has led to kind of interesting conversations because I think a lot of firms throw somebody into that position and it's like, figure it out. And that person might not be able to just figure it out on day one. It it's a process, right? So Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, because I mean you have one person who is in charge of this but really you almost need a culture, right? You mentioned the people. You really need the culture to do that. I mean it is nice to have somebody to spearhead this idea, I suppose, but um can you talk about that? How do you build that type of culture to where they the the team wants to to build technology and build innovation into their culture? I'm actually gonna be I I'm gonna be speaking at Autodesk University in September about that very thing, kind of a w we're calling an an AI readiness plan, but I think you could translate that to d how do you transform your firm? How do you take things like the culture into into the planning because it is very important, like the culture is. And and I think I see it lots of different ways, but some firms are very grassroots. You're gonna have just enthusiasts who are young and out of school and they know the tools and they see what the potential is and then they step into a firm that maybe don't have those capabilities or the people in place to do those things. So there's excuse me, there's this grass grassroots effort And then you see other firms where it's it's a top-down. It's like the leader's like, okay, if we don't figure this out, we're not gonna be a company in five years or whatever. And so we're gonna put somebody in place to figure this out. And then some firms have a combination of top-down and grassroots, and they're kind of missing something in the middle to actually make that work. And so there's lots of variables at play here. Um I try to speak to all of those different levels. I try to speak. show the pathways for the grassroots and the the emerging professionals and I also try to show the how does a a a leader make decisions about how to move forward and how to enable people and how to create the culture that's needed so that those others can flourish in their firms. Um because I think one of the big challenges that we've seen Over the last decade is, you know, you have these very technology forward emerging professionals, and if they don't see a pathway for themselves in a firm, they're gonna go somewhere else, and that might not be an architecture. It might be at a technology firm, it might be at a startup. There's a lot of stuff going on out there right now. There's a lot of startups hiring, there's a lot of activity and they pay more. Right than than people in the building industry. And so so how do these firms attract and create the places for those people to land? Uh it's kind of an existential level of of something going on in the profession that we have to deal with at at large. So I I try to speak to all those different aspects of it. Um but but kind of assessing where you're at, it really depends on what you've got. And so it's it's an individual exercise. And you know, each firm is going to be different. Each firm is in a different location. They've got a different makeup of people. They've got different capabilities. Um and so you kinda have to assess all of those things on an individual basis and then pick your pathway forward depending on where you want to go with that. Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah, it seems like it seems like a big part of that too is just um getting people motivated at I mean you mentioned the top down versus the grassroots part. Um I mean you have a whole workforce at play, especially in a bigger organization. Um I I I guess I'm assuming, you know, medium to larger, but if you can get the workforce em interested in the innovation, um that's a big that would be a big win for the cool organization. Um how do you get how do you get people to be motivated to adopt new ideas and and even go searching out for new ideas? Yeah, part of it is just enabling them or even training them on the job so that they understand the value that they could bring because I good ideas can can literally come from anywhere, right? They don't just have to come from an innovation manager or somebody charged with figuring that stuff out. Um but you have to enable people to be able to do that at at any level, right? So um It it's an interesting conundrum. There's not a recipe on how to do that, but it really comes kind of back to that culture. Do you give people time to do that? Do you train them how to do that? There's also, you know, aspects of our industry that are like against training and they just think, you'll figure it out on nights and weekends or or whatever. And and I don't think that that's culturally the right way to treat training. at the speed that things are moving now, I you you I don't think you can actually operate like that anymore. You really have to invest in your people. And they have to feel that, because if they don't feel that, uh, then you're not actually investing in them, right? You can you can say it on paper. You can say, Yep, we invest in our people, we we this and that and that. But if they don't feel it through tangible things, uh, they have no incentive to innovate. you know, and to bring new ideas to the table to figure out the pathway that your business is gonna move forward. So you really have to create the place, a safe place. And one of one of the important aspects is realizing that a lot of innovation is failure. And y the only way you actually learn is through failing. I th that's what I tell my kids. It's like if you don't try and fail, like that's just I think inherently part of it, then you're not gonna learn And and so I a po a lot of a lot of technology initiatives are gonna fail. I think the latest number I saw is like upwards of eighty percent, eighty five percent of digital transformation initiatives actually fail. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do them because you are learning along the way and that's part of the process. And so do you have to spend money to fail? Yes, but you could reframe that and say you're spending money to learn, right? And so You you've I think that's all that's all part of kind of the topics that we talk about on the podcast as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you it takes a lot of gr critical mass to get an idea. I mean, if you really want to try an idea out, I mean we have a project management software we've been using for four months. I mean, I think it's gonna work, but but it's scary. It's scary because like you have to you in order to really know if it's gonna work, you you at least have to put that, you know, small number of people on it and t truly test it out. I mean The first thing you have to do is like kinda like just op open the file up and do a trial and so forth and you gotta spend a few minutes or a few hours just studying it. So that's time. And then you have to say, Okay, we're gonna put a half a dozen people on it, or maybe three or four people on it, and start working on it. And that's time and investment. And then you gotta say, Okay, we're gonna go for it. Yeah. Um, and you put, you know, most of your jobs on it or whatever, and now it's like, I think it's working okay. But it is a little bit scary 'cause this is how you're running your business, you know. Right, right. I mean it is. And and you're you're making a choice to be a learning organization at that level, right? Uh and and and realizing that yeah, it could fail, but that's why we do pilots and that's why we have champions to kind of take that responsibility but also have the freedom to fail and know that they're not gonna get fired for it failing. Like like the goal is to try things and try them out and and and get them so that they become the snowball that gets bigger the farther it goes. Uh and and you start with a pilot project and you start with a pilot team and and you take one step at a time and you kind of identify what is success what do we think success looks like. But don't try to figure it all out before you start doing it because there's always going to be the devil's advocate in the room who's willing to break any idea the minute it's born. you can't have that either. Right. That that is not creating a safe place for these kinds of things to happen if you've got somebody who's always gonna stomp on the latest idea. Right. So i it it does come back to culture and safety and like psychological safety, right? It's it's it's just like, oh, can can I try something and can it fail? And will we all be okay? And can we learn from it? Um, I mean, it seems obvious when you say it like that, but there's lots of people out there who make those situations impossible in firms, and then What do people do? They they just hide in their cubicle and they just keep their heads down and they just keep doing the same thing they've always done and that organization is dying because it's not learning over time. Yeah. Yeah, man. Um and I like what you said about the failure. Um I think Google actually they they have it might have been Google, they have like these parties when something fails. Interesting. I haven't heard that. So i I think they kill like when they kill something, you know, like, hey, this idea's not working, um, they have a party for it. So they're encouraging like, hey, if if it's failing, let's let's call it what it is. Right. Let's let's move on to the next That's a really important point, right? Is is yeah, because you can't have all of the distractions of nursing something along that's not working either. Right. You r literally have to have something that you're tracking and say, This is working, we should pursue it. This is not working, we should kill it. Like there's a date that says, Okay, expiration date, here's what it is. If it's not working by then, we're done. And and being really clear about that. Yeah, defining defining what that good looks like in that situation. Yeah. awesome. Well, so uh I'm a podcaster and somebody might also be, you know, an architect who says, Hey, you know what, I'd like to start a podcast. I mean, um, I just wanted to open that conversation up a bit in terms of what would you tell somebody who's thinking, Hey, I'm I I wanna start a podcast in about the AEC industry as well. how d how does one get started and any tips? It's easier than ever to create a podcast nowadays. I think I read yesterday that according to the Apple's podcast platform, there was something like eight hundred and sixty thousand eight hundred and sixty thousand new podcasts in the last year. That's a lot of podcasts, right? There's a lot So so what that says says two things. Like you're Okay, that's your quote unquote competition. I don't think it's really your competition. But it's it's easier than ever, right? If if there's that many new podcasts, yes, it's easier than ever. The technology's there. Um, you know, you don't need much to do it. You need a computer, maybe just a phone, you know, to do it and and you can do it. Um To do it well, to actually turn into something, because most of those podcasts never make it past one episode, and it's something like ninety percent never make it past ten episodes. So like I say I th I say if you're gonna start a podcast, commit to it. Commit to it for a year and commit to it for a number of episodes, and then decide if you're gonna pursue it or kill it. Right? Because You will beat most podcasts out there if you can make it past ten or twelve episodes. You actually you'll just naturally rise to the top. Um and don't care about how many people are listening and don't care about how many people are or are not commenting. Make the podcast that you want to hear and and tell your friends about it, tell people on your social media about it, start developing a mailing list about it, and let people find that because you're putting it out there and then stay consistent with it. Or else, yeah, it's not worth doing. So it it it's like it's like any T V show that you've ever invested your time into. If they stop making it, you know, if they take a season off because of a writer's strike, it's very hard to get back into that show again because the you build a reputation, but you build a muscle memory. You build a desire for people to want to show up and listen. Um, but you've got to show up for them to show up. And so I I th I think it kind of just starts with that level of commitment, which sounds kind of basic, but a lot of people can't do it. So Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of noise out there. But but they're the the the strong ones are the ones who are just consistently showing up. And it doesn't have to be every week. It could be every couple of weeks, but it's got to be consistent. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well I hit a dozen for sure. Nice. You're on the way. yeah, I'm definitely uh we're actually on uh our third season. Um, so pretty happy about that. But I that's w what one of my people that I spoke to a couple of years ago, he he recommended. You know, go for a hundred if you're gonna do it. If so he was a little higher, but I mean Mountain. Yeah. And but then at some point it's like, wow, like where'd that go? That you know, it it and and it's an incredible resource for the community that you want to build. And that community could literally be ten or a hundred people or whatever. You know, I I I don't recommend people start podcasting for money. Um, I recommend you do it because you've got something to say or are you a resource you want to create for a community that may not exist yet, or is a different aspect of looking at the way something is already out there but it's for for another group of people. So Yeah. Yeah, I mean I try to go a a slightly different angle with what I'm doing. I mean it is AEC which is generic, but the big thing that we do is um I really just I try to find out people's story and um, you know, I always go into the name of the podcast, Enhance, um and just find out what are you doing to which I guess we could get into that, but what are you doing to um, you know, enhance the world around you? And um kind of what is your why? And I just I like to do that because I feel like like architecture, you know, I kinda like what we started with in terms of is it is it just I'm doing a building, a box, or I want to put something out there that's that's interesting and has more value. And so yeah, so what what is your why? What what are you doing to enhance what around you through through your work? Yeah, I I think I touched on that earlier with the idea of creating a resource for people to be able to create their digital practice or transform their business. because, you know, there's I guess that the the what do you do or why do you do it is really about the change that you want to create in the world, not I like I'm not doing this to make a podcast. Right. I'm not a podcaster to make podcasts. I'm My business is the transformation of architecture and engineering firms into the next version that does better work. And so I'm interested in having those conversations with people and making them public. So that creates a resource that people can tap into and get that information and ask questions and identify who those people are that they can then reach out to on LinkedIn um or learn more about through my links in my show notes. Right. So I do a lot of additional work beyond the conversation to create that resource. And it's important, I think, when you're beginning to do this, to look at it very big picture and say, like each episode matters, but the work is all of the work together. It's not just one episode here, one episode there. It's If if people were to just look at the one episode and then, you know, they never look at the podcast again and they really say, okay, that's the podcast. It's not at all. It's really about how all of these pieces fit together. And because there's so much not nuance um in in the conversations that we have on the show, there's never an agenda. I don't have prepared questions ahead of time when I'm having conversations. That's the way I do it. Um and and the reason is is because podcasting is one of the only places left where we can have long form and not get penalized for it. Right. There's no algorithm in podcasting that's trying to say, you get six seconds to have a video con connect with a a viewer. Podcasting is not like that. Um and you know, there used to be people everybody had a blog back in the day. Like nobody has blogs anymore, right? Because everybody's gone to the social feed and they're just scrolling through these the what the algorithm gives you because you've shown interest in this person and this product and whatever. And so it's generating that for you. But but a podcast feed is like you subscribe to a feed, those episodes show up on your device, and then I've got you in you've got me in your ears for an hour, two hours, three hours sometimes to have these conversations. Um and it's my job to facilitate that information getting to those people and I think that's why they keep showing up because they're getting something out of it. Um but big picture wise it's it's a the you know, it's almost a platform, not just a channel or not just a podcast. It's like I have a lot of different moving parts when it comes to the resources that I'm creating. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well I mean it does sound like a an important an important podcast to listen to and um you definitely have an inspirational why. So I appreciate that. And I actually relate to that because I do feel like that's that bigger picture. I mean, if s somebody was asking me like what was my favorite podcast that I did recently. And it was a it's actually hard to answer that because each one brings you know, so much to the table, you know, and it's like, well, this this guy was f just funny and fun and interesting. but this one brought so much history and and knowledge about the area. Um, and so I like to be able my goal is really to entertain, inspire, and educate. So, you know, I think we hit a lot on on all three today. a little bit on all three. So, um, hopefully, you know, um But um I definitely had had a lot of learned a lot from you. so I I I'm trying to think if there's anything else that um that you wanna share, Evan, as far as Any topics that we didn't hit on already. Uh nothing comes to mind. I I I appreciate you inviting me to come on the show. It's definitely you know, I I I I like every once in a while to be able to be on the other side of the table and and try to get another perspective. I I get another perspective by sharing what I get to share on going on other people's shows. So, you know, most of the time I'm doing the the question asking and not the answering. so I thank you very much for having me on the show. Yeah, I did I did w actually I there was another question that came up in my mind about the the implementation of technology. Actually I wanted to ask this. with regard to 'cause I I felt like the angle we were taking earlier was bigger companies, but we do have smaller businesses, maybe solos, solopreneurs and things and you know, s half a dozen people companies. just communicating the value of technology to those companies. Um You know, why should they even explore I mean, tech new technologies in this day and age? I mean, can you hit on that a bit? The the thing that comes to my mind off off the top of my head there is, you know, solopreneurs have to do a lot. They have to do all the things. I I'm one, so I can speak to this. So like I've got to do promotion, marketing, uh, you know, the production the all of the things. You have to you have to find clients, you've got to attract an audience, you've got whatever the things are that your business is is trying to do. So if you're an architecture firm or an engineering firm, you're trying to find clients or you're trying to find architects to work with or whatever. And so you've got to wear all the hats. And that's where I think technology comes in. That's where you're going to leverage a tool. It's like, you know, if if you've got a wood shop And you need to build a rocking chair, like you don't just use one tool to build that rocking chair, you use a bunch of tools to build that rocking chair. Maybe you've got a band saw and maybe you've got a table saw and maybe you've got some chisels and a planer and sanders and all that kind of stuff and wood glue and Yeah, like that's how it works, right? And so it's uh to me it's the same thing running an an AEC business and you're a solopreneur, you want to have tools at your disposal To do all those things to make it as easy as possible for you to do the thing you actually want to do, which is the projects. Right? Because if you're having to go over the contract with a fine tooth comb and you've got to handhold the client because they're not happy with the color of paint that's going on the wall, and the contractor's throwing a change order at you, and you've got all those things to deal with, right? Um and so if you can implement Technology doesn't have to be AI, right? It could be any kind of technology that's out there that really helps you solve a problem so that you can do the thing that you want to do and give you that time back to do that. To me, there's there's the incentive right there. And so if you're if feeling stuck because you've got so much to do and therefore you don't have the time to focus on their creativity or the problem solving aspects of the business that we're in, uh look there so that you can get that time back. And actually do the thing that you got into the business to do in the first place. Yeah. Okay. And if you are unsure about which one of those technologies they can listen to you, right? Um so w one more question. What which one of those guitars is your favorite to use back there? Ooh, um okay, so you got the full screen view. I think there's there's more guitars that you can't see, it's just saying That's a really cool bag route, by the way. like I like the Gretsch over here. The hollow body Gretsch is probably one of my favorite guitars to actually play. So on the opposite side I've got this really beautiful like sixties Gibson, which is a similar style of a guitar, so way older. And just not as playable. Right. So I talked earlier about like the guitar's gotta feel good in the hands and it's gotta play well. If you really wanna sit down and play guitar, you wanna play guitar that feels good and feels like a part of you. that Gibson, even though it's worth probably a lot more, is not that guitar to me. I have it here because my dad gave it to me. And uh it's a it's a beautiful guitar, but it's just not it it's one of those ones where you play it and you're like, Yeah, I could hang that up, I don't need to play that again for a month. But this other one I want to grab it all the time and play it. And so yeah, that's probably it just feels right. Yeah. that's the nice car that you you just look at. So cool man. Well hey it was a lot of fun today. Um is there anything else I think we already asked that, but anything else you need to hit today? Oh, I'm good. I hey, uh what do they say on YouTube? Like and subscribe and and I mean help Andy out here. If you like this episode, subscribe to the podcast and and that that really does help. It's it's a it's a signal that like the content's landing, but it's also useful for him to do something even bigger with the show and so that's what we're trying to grow it and um you know, help people enhance the world around them, give some inspiration, right? Excellent. So um, yeah, and how do people find you by the way? I think the best place is on LinkedIn. you can look me up, Evan Troxel on LinkedIn. Uh my my website's Trxl dot co. It's a pretty short link. Um but yeah, you can find the Troxel podcast there and Arcaspeak Podcast dot com is another place you can go to. Okay, awesome. Another dot co person, so yeah. Yep. yeah, so you go check it out and thanks for being on the show today, Evan. It was a it was a joy to have you. Same here, Andy. Thanks for having me. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhance. And please leave a like, a subscribe, or a follow, and we'll see you next time.