So on today's episode we had Derek Wong, who is a founder of Builders Press, a specialized content agency helping AEC tech founders become leading industry authorities on LinkedIn in 90 days or less. What do you have to say about this episode? So I thought it had some definitely interesting parts to it. Learned about how to create content and things, of course, but also we learned about contact phase one, two, and three point oh. Okay. So that was interesting. So I don't want to give it all away. Don't give away all the things. But there's there's three distinct phases that Derek feels we're in. And that helps that helps us understand, you know, like he talks about Mark Twain and how you look past, look into the past to learn about the future and where are we going with context. That was one thing that was really interesting. Um and then we talked about uh a book called Story Worthy and just superlatives that you can ask people to really bring out the story. So for example, what is your first? What is your best? What is your last? What is your worst? So what is your first Job. I think it was working for you. really? Yeah, working filing and I would vacuum and organize the snacks in a straight line. Okay. Yeah. What is something or maybe your last job? Um two floral design companies that I work for. Okay. And then this. So it's all current. Yeah, awesome. And you helped me with enhance too, right? What is something you would change about your social media or about the way you present yourself after listening to today's episode? So he brought he brought up one thing. It was like a filter to a as you're posting content on LinkedIn. He said, what would your grandmother read this post? So I thought that was an interesting filter to put on this. So I I feel comfortable with what I write. Um but it but it did it did make me think, okay, am I am I really writing content that's appropriate for that? Um I d I don't think that's that's really an issue for me, but I think this idea that the superlatives first, best, last, worst, I think helps you really tell a story. I mean you're really trying to reach out to your customer. Mm-hmm. Um, that's a challenge for me because I work in engineering and I know engineering. I know what we do, which we do it for architects, but I have a hard time sometimes bridging that, right? So architects want. What do the architects want? What is what is the that's what would they find interesting to listen to in your episode? Yeah. Well that's why I try to really focus on bringing in architects. So today wasn't an architect, but um he's helping contech and it's it's related to the construction industry. So it's the AEC podcast. So we're we're all three. Um and we all all three of that triad really need to understand all three parts to some extent. And it's hard to separate because like obviously you're just an engineer, but you couldn't do your job without a contractor or an architect. Right. So we really do need to all understand the other sides of the coin, so to speak. Triple sided coin. Yeah, a triangle, I guess. Which hey, we got the triangle for the for the uh it's not up here. There's a triangle. It's somewhere. Yeah, the triangle for the enhanced. Because check out our logo. Yeah. Okay, well my name is Andy Richardson and this is Madeline, our producer, and this is the Enhanced Podcast. Thanks for joining us today. We are a podcast who interviews professionals in the AEC industry and find out what their story is. Let's jump to the intro. you Welcome to Enhance, an AEC podcast, where we learn the why behind AEC professionals so that you can learn your why. Hey Derek, welcome to the Enhance Podcast. Hey Andy, great to be here, excited to chat. Definitely, definitely. So how's how's things going this week for you? Uh good. It's uh busy, but busy is always good. Yeah. Well I've got a I've got a question, an opener question for you. So just you work with a lot of context companies. So what is the weirdest context trend that you've seen lately that's left a a strange taste? The weirdest? that's a good question, right? After the the weirdest contact trend. I don't know if this is the necessarily the weirdest, but um the most interesting trend is how many people from outside the industry are getting in. and that's something I've seen and written about a a good amount is um I'm in San Francisco and so over the last year the the Titans, the V C investors have woken up to uh construction, engineering, architecture, all of that and is like, Whoa, let's let's go do something there and uh the amount of money that's been poured in um has been crazy g in good and bad ways. But um yeah, definitely the most interesting trend. Okay, and what do you think is causing these investors to really turn their head toward the construction industry? the constru uh there's there's two reasons. One as investors are looking into where to put money, um Bye! they're f they're having difficulty. uh trying to figure out as companies like OpenAI and Anthropic are taking up all the the money and so investors are finding having a hard time finding companies uh that are defensible because every time open AI or Anthropic comes up with something new, uh like, you know, a hundred different companies all go out of business 'cause that Like their their core their core company or their core product just got replaced by just got replaced by OpenAI or Anthopic. Uh the second reason being as they're looking for new com new places to put money, they are looking for what it's called like the legacy industries where you know, we can add technology to this and it's gonna change everything. Um and AEC tends to fit that mold of a large market, you know, there's the headline number of whatever, thirteen trillion dollars worldwide is is the global G D P of AEC or at least of construction. Um Talking about o how outdated it is, um, investors like. That seems like a good place to start. Let's go s put some money in there. And uh would you say they're they're being successful at that or is it harder than they think to jump into this industry? Obviously each business stand outs on its own legs, but yeah what what are you seeing there? too too early to tell. Um it'll probably be played out in the next two years. I have seen There are There's some upsetting things where I see, you know, a a CEO a founder CEO come in, uh, they raise, you know, five million dollars and then nine months later they they're like, Hey, we're we're building, you know, AI for the built world and then nine months later they're like, Hey, after we're shutting down and I've just joined a new role at OpenAI I was like dude, like really? Like you Is it was this all just a plural to like get yourself on into open AI, like you're gonna start a company nine months later you're gonna shut it down? ah Okay. Yeah, so that's so that's one of the things you're seeing is people just going to the to the magnet of sorts, the big magnets one you know. Um, okay. Now so we talked about how you're working with a lot of context companies and, you know, people that are in technology in the AEC world, architecture, engineering and construction obviously. Um, and so you help These founders, how how do you help them and what what are you what is your goal there? Yeah. So I turn uh founders LinkedIn into pipeline. Um so I do that through content similar to Jonathan Core. through content and high intent signals. So yeah, everyone the the phrase I always use is everyone knows in construction Construction's built on relationships. I just add on to that and say relations content builds relationships with scale. And so, it used to be that everyone knew everyone and could walk into a conference room, shake everyone's hands and and kinda smile and say, Oh, it's it's been a while. Now the world and the industry has gotten so big that uh you can't really do that. At least not to the same level. And so um for a lot of people who for a lot of these you know, tech founders that are trying to scale up using content um to get in front of the right people and then uh what I call the the high intent signals. If you have if you're selling to architects, if you're selling to engineers and you have someone who owns, you know, an engineering firm like the last three posts that you have, you should probably reach out. Like that's probably an indication that they're interested in what you guys are doing. So turning that obviously the content and the the the high intense signals into yeah, pipeline. Yeah, okay. So it says that you work with AEC founders, so that includes all aspects of AEC, architect, engineer and contractors, or more of the tech side? Um more the tech side. Um not that I'm opposed to anything uh from the actual like uh AEC side. but uh that just hasn't come across my plate yet. So people that want to get you wanna sell to an AEC company as a technology company, you wanna get your social media products out there, so or you wanna get your s your products out there through social media, what I meant to say. You do you feel like LinkedIn? I mean you mentioned that specifically, is that the the place to be right now? you especially if you're selling to larger corporations like um you Anything any firm that's doing over fifty or a hundred million dollars in project value a year, that is the main main source. I have heard here and there that people are trying to get into Instagram 'cause Instagram knows everything about you and they can do that targeting, but um But I'm less familiar with that and I haven't heard great success from that yet. So um LinkedIn is primarily where people people are using social media. Yeah, okay. So I'm looking at your website and it's i I like the pictures that you have on it. Basically um you the oh the founders that you work with and then it says help help my marketing team on here. So you can go to Derek's website by the way, builder builderspress dot com. So there's your plug, little early plug but Appreciate it. But um so it says help help my marketing team, you know, and then the pro what's the problem? Like why why can't people get this information out there? It's it says stuck in their head, what does that mean? you lots of people lots of people have I think most people have a great story to share, uh, but the whole thing is it's stuck in their head. And uh again, I was listening to to Jonathan on your podcast and um lots of people have the the quote unquote curse of knowledge. of like, yeah, I know this, everyone knows this. But it's like, no, no, no, no, not everyone knows this. You know that, but because you live in your head, you think everyone knows it. And so the stuck in their head is like everyone particularly if you're if you're starting a company, like it is uh a great feat to start a company and I admire anyone who does it and so there's stories to share, but um because so many people have that curse of knowledge, they assume everyone knows it, thinks about it, but they don't and that's that's why you need to share your perspective. Yeah. Um and and it could help it could help build a you know, a connection with somebody, right? Maybe maybe they are, you know, lurking for three months, six months a year and if you keep writing those posts, I mean who knows, maybe they'll that'll be your lottery ticket one day, right? Exactly. That's you'd be surprised. Um well, may maybe not you'd be surprised. I know you you write on on LinkedIn yourself. but lots of people were surprised at how many people who never comment, like, share anything, who come up to me or to my clients, you know, in the real world and say, Hey Derek, I've been seeing your stuff. I love it. Keep it up I'm like Who like when did when did I I funny story. back in May I went to E and R Future Tech here in uh San Francisco. It's a conference and it's my first time. I don't really know too many people and I'm walking down one of the halls and I lock eyes with this guy who's walking the other way. And he like he stares at me and he's like recognize me and I don't I I'm like, who is this guy? And he goes, Derek? I'm like, Yes. He's like, Derek Wong? I'm like, Yes, how can I help you? He's like, dude, I love you. I was like, I don't know who you are, but this is cool. Like let's let's let's chat, let's talk. Yeah. Um and he'd been following me for a while. We traded some messages maybe like two years ago. I I'd forgotten about. He was like, dude, I love your stuff and I was like never met, you never like my s we you never like my content. But it's just that those types of interactions that's uh come up a lot. Yeah, awesome. Well you mentioned that, but I've never seen you like my stuff either. uh Exactly. But I mean maybe you have. I I I don't see every single one, but anyway. it's all good. But so It sounds like this is really an area that you feel like is a significant way to get if I'm a if I'm a contact person, I've got some software, I've got some technology, I wanna get my message out there. Um but I I've w whether I'm I might be new to the industry though, according to the trend we talked about earlier, but most people I think are probably been there for a long time and they have some killer ideas like, Hey man, we really need to do this software or that or um and so So want to get their stor they've they've developed this company, they want to get their story out there, but number one, they're busy, right? Because they're a business owner, uh they're a founder. Um number two, it's that curse of knowledge that you were d talking about. So what what should I do if I'm in that situation? I mean being able to have I'm I'm Ahem. I'm opposed to AI writing. Uh it's Ahem. It is proliferated, particularly on LinkedIn. You see it in the comments everywhere you see it in uh certain types of content. And there is that a very much a backlash. So I'm I'm very much against that. Um if you don't have the time, ah you can work with someone on your team or work with someone like me. That that's uh that's my whole company for with Builders Press is being able to help get those uh stories and ideas out there without it being a heavy lift on your time or on your on your schedule or anything like that. you Yeah. So what what do you guys do then? Like how do you help people? you Yeah, so um I once I get started with any clients is trying to figure out map out who they're trying to reach. that's the more important parts or most important parts is uh, you know, likes and impressions don't pay the bills. So, as someone who has gone which is kinda cringy to say viral viral on LinkedIn before, um, you get that dopamine hit and you're like, Wow, I'm getting hundreds of thousands of likes or whatever and then twenty four hours later, forty eight hours later you're like, Wait, what what did I get from that? Uh nothing. Nothing really. and so you actually I'm I'm a big advocate of going very niche. So figuring out who you're trying to reach, if you are trying to reach architects, okay. Uh writes for architects. If you're trying to reach you know, estimators, project managers, write for them. If you're trying to reach you know, structural engineers write for them. And of course, like it's gonna feel very different than you know, writing something like you know, for the masses about AI or you know, working a hundred hours a week or work life balance or anything like that. But you'll see a tangible difference. Um so first part is figuring out who you're trying to reach and then from there is okay, what are the what are the stories, what are the case studies, what are the the different things that will resonate with them? And that comes through uh interviews, that comes through um what I call my story bank, it's like, okay, what are the things having having clients sit down and actually write out like what are the things I want to be known for and how um What are the stories that I can share to connect with this this certain audience? Okay, so that would be the first thing you would do with a customer or client is is sit down and write these things out and define define this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then from there it's just executing on that. So, um if there's uh meeting up with people for for interviews, that's it is the art of the art of interviewing is difficult and asking great questions to surface stories. because I've got a client right now who worked in the industry for fifteen years uh before going to the tech side. Or fifteen years at at in in different capacities before their current position now. Uh and she has so many horror stories and war stories. But again the curse of knowledge she's like, yeah, like this is normal. Like everyone Everyone has these stories. I'm like, no, that's not normal. Like you've got great stories that we've gotta we've gotta dig up. I gotta ask um the specific questions uh to to dig those up. Yeah. What what are some of those questions that that you're able to you Uh have you ever heard of Um Story Worthy by Matthew Dix? It's a book. I haven't heard of that one. No. It's a great book. You gotta highly, highly recommends and you can you can look him up on YouTube. Um he is I'm gonna do a I guess a little plug for him. Um have you heard of the Moth uh Storytelling Championship? you No. So Moth is a an organization of course they have compet this this is how niche our world is, right? They have competitions for everything. Um Moth is an organization that has competitions for storytelling. wow. so you s like like a open mic except you're up there for eight to twelve minutes and you tell a story. And he is the all time leading winner. He's won like thirty-five of them or something like that. he w so he wrote a book called Story Worthy. And one great way he extracts stories from himself and from people are the first, last, best to worst question. Um, so you can use this in any in any context. In in the car, with a long drive with your kids or when you're trying to you're meeting someone you wanna just get some stories. Hey, tell me about the first job you ever had? How about the last job you ever had? How about the best job? How about the worst job? Hey, you know, talking with your kids. Hey, what was what do you remember as your first day of school, last day of school, best day of school, worst day of school. You can use these as like 'cause the those all four of those are very salient to remember. And so when you ask someone about the first time, they screw it, they made a mistake and the boss yelled at them. You're like, gosh. Dude, I remember the first time and like you s you get a story. Okay, how about The best job you ever had. Oh, like the best job I ever had was X XYZ. How about the worst? Oh dude. Like five years ago I had this boss, it was the worst job I ever had. You instantly get a story. Yeah. Okay. Yeah those those are great. Those are great ideas. I'll have to check that one out. So um what are what is the best story? So I'll I'll use your idea. So what's the best story that you've heard from from using this technique? Best story I've heard. one year custom. I had a I had a client who I don't know. TEEEE The the this this similar client that I was talking about before, she's gone back when she was working on the the construction side of things, she was working as a trying that's it. She was working uh as an estimator. And The first time she ever went through bid day was crazy because she's she's she's very organized, she's like wants to have a plan, you know, she's going to she's going to you know, a vacation, she's got the whole thing planned out six months six months in advance, right? that's that's the type of personality. And first time ever going into bid day she's like, okay, like I'm gonna go through uh my specs, my scopes, everything like that. And within ten minutes of getting into the office, all the whole plan for the entire day was out the window. And it was just chaos and so they had the giant conference room, where the the chief estimator uh was there kind of s grilling everyone. Like you walk in and sh she'd ask you like, Alright, what do your numbers okay, now like she'd pick a random one and say, Prove this. Why why did you why did you land at at uh at this number? And She She was like, this is insane. There's she even remembers there's uh one person dedicated to just watching the clock. Someone in the conference room I was watching the clock and then uh when it came down to the final few minutes they just started counting aloud. Sixty seconds, fifty-nine, fifty-eight, fifty-seven before you gotta push submit. and she's like, I will never forget that. Wow, that sounds insan like insanity right there. So is that how all bid days are? Maybe that one cup. More often than more often than not, is my understanding. wow. Okay. I mean I'm c I'm on the engineering side, so I worked for a bit of a construction a combine we had a construction arm of one of my companies, but I never w really was involved in the bidding. So it sounds pretty pretty wild. But I mean I think working with founders of tech companies, AEC tech companies, I mean that's an interesting mix right there because um I mean, we're in the construction industry. I mean, that's interesting already, right? Like that story you just told. But also we have f people that are entrepreneurs, basically. They're founders, they're they have an idea, they want to get out there. So it seems like there's probably a lot of great stories, a lot of compelling things. And I mean, to build a business around an idea, it has to be a significant idea. You have to have found a problem that you're willing to solve, right? So Yeah. but it seems like these founders are having a hard time getting that story out there. I mean, what is is there anything I mean, we talked about a few impediments, a few reasons why, but is there any any reason why they're having a hard time getting that story out there? Uh it's noisy. Uh it's it's hard to stand out in in the sea of sameness essentially where um it is busier than ever when you have you know if if you count globally there's probably you I'd guess fifteen to twenty new startups every week that raise a million dollars or more. And so at that level of volume there's just so many people and entering the industry that it becomes very difficult to build a stand out. Which is why, like I'm so focused on the the story s story side of things. Like okay. Like how can you be able to stand out is you need people to get uh connected with you? Yeah. Well, you also want to connect with so if you're if you're working with an architect or an engineer or a contractor and you're trying to sell them technology, you have to understand their story, you have to understand their needs, right? Totally. So it's like a bridge. So I have my I have what I'm sh sharing and what my experiences are, but I also have to bridge that to your experiences. So it seems like that's a challenge too, because you may not know I'm I may be really good at like I don't know, this AI software but I'm I'm trying to connect the dots with what you need. So w how do you get how do you bridge that? in person. Like everything else is in in the industry is in person 'cause um everyone has a different way of working. I've heard of a client of mine who's he's he's again, this classic you know, AI guy, his PhD in computer science work that meta, TikTok, crews and all these AI things. I started a company in in construction. and so he started it's very different from working at Facebook meta, whatever you want to call it, versus uh building AI tools for for contractors. And so he found when visiting them depending on which office location he visited, they input their data differently. And so leadership had this whole problem of like, we don't really know what data's going on and once he started visiting all these different offices, he's like, yeah, I don't know either, 'cause your team like depending on the location, they're all inputting it differently formatting it differently and so like everything is scattershot. Uh and that's just something that you you wouldn't have been able to know without visiting in person. And that's why like 'cause that's very different from, you know, Facebook. I'm sure Facebook whenever they are looking for data, they've got they've got a whole department of you know, a hundred plus people of the smartest people in the world, all making sure the data is clean and and looks good. Contractors just don't have that. That's not something everyone knows off the bat.. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's it's a good uh lesson to go to the source of the issue and understand it. I I love that advice. Um so once somebody br is able to bridge that gap, say, and they start writing some content that's meaningful, you have some killer killer uh content, right? And you're starting to see some metrics, like you're starting to see some things tick, right? Like likes and impressions and what are some metrics that you look for to to know that people are doing well, like in terms of an ROI of sorts on LinkedIn. Uh the the ROI is definitely connected it it's not just which is why like I try to emphasize that this service isn't just about putting content out there um but being able to leverage it. So again if you are selling to uh structural engineers and you've got you know the the head of a um you know mid-sized structural engineering firm engaging with your post, they might not they might not reach out immediately. So that's that's where you have to track that and say like, oh okay, this post got, you know, twenty likes, but two of them are my ideal ICP. Um, I I said ideal ICP. uh, two of them are my ICP. Okay, let me reach out to them. and I try to m make that a priority. It's like it's not enough for you to just post the the whole what's known as post and coast. Like it's not enough to just uh put something out there and then f log off or forget about your LinkedIn. You need to do the admittedly boring work of like, okay, filtering through, who is engaging, who are they? Are they a customer? Have have I met them before at a conference? Um and then take that step. Okay, hey, hey John. You know, saw you liked the last few posts. Um, you know, what's been interesting, start a conversation and then let that turn into a potential customer. Yeah. Okay. yeah and and LinkedIn doesn't doesn't really let you post and coast because I mean it it only gives you so much you know juice after you post it anyway, right? I mean you really have to stay active if you want if you really want to get much. LinkedIn doesn't really care about us too much, right? you Yeah, it is yeah, the LinkedIn algorithm is is crazy. so that's a really good advice too to to stay engaged to actually extract this information that you know, a like is worth a lot because this person took the time to like your content, but um now you you have a sense of okay I I can connect with this person, I can relate to this person. Um so that's that's really a a big thing that you can do or a comment, you can really extract that information. Um and are there any other things that you would you would want to do to start to convert to basically you're trying to get some some new work, some new revenue. Um how how do you convert that to revenue? Is that is there any tips you have for that? you it's the boring work. There's some uh software tools that's um are getting pretty good now. There's things like uh Traxi or Jungler where you can set them up to essentially put put certain profiles on the on a quote unquote watch list. like an FBI watch list but you know, for your company. Where if if you've got a Bye. Um if you've you can set up where like, okay, I am you know, this is my company, this is uh what I sell the the product or the service, um these are the people I'm trying to reach and then these are the people I want you to be aware of. You can put yourself on that list so it's okay, again, whenever a project manager at a construction company likes uh my post let me know. Also, let me know if they like a competitor's post. And and let me know about that too, 'cause I want if if they like you know, if I'm selling a software for superintendents and they like one of my competitors' posts about software for superintendents, that means they're probably interested. Um, but I gotta jump on that and like make sure Uh I'm an I'm the one they they talk to, not you know, my comp not my competitor. you Yeah. Okay. Um it sounds like those things could help, but some people might think um that's like stalking people on on the internet. I mean what do you think about that? Bye. it's n you I never thought about I thought about it as as as stalking. It's it's turning um what uh your your data interests into like, okay, who who are you actually um looking for? So it's less so about like I'm going into someone's Instagram feed and liking a photo from five years ago. Wait, sh- if people are actually interested then they're looking for help. And there's there's uh nothing um you Nothing wrong. I I think you're doing someone a disservice if s someone's looking for help, you can help them and don't help them. Yeah. Okay. That's fair. And I didn't mean to you know, it wasn't intended to be a trick question or anything. I just you know, came to my mind like, okay, we're using these different softwares and you mentioned like AI can be cringy. So maybe maybe this could there's a lot of cringe on social media, right? So what is uh how how do you help how do you help them not be cringy on LinkedIn? or on social media. Like what what tips do you have to to not not be over promotional, for example? Uh it's it depends on on what you're willing to to to share and to be known for. There's there's cringy things like um you There's a subreddit called LinkedIn Lunatics, if you've ever heard of it. and it's it's like people people just posting about like crazy things that uh people post on LinkedIn. and one of the most To get the impressions kind of thing or you No, no, no. It's you Probably three or four years ago, uh the I think probably the most viral p post on LinkedIn was this guy proposing to his then girlfriend now fiance and writing about what it taught him about B the B Sass. If you've heard of that. and You That that's an example of cringe, la you got a lot of criticism. But it's probably the most viral uh piece on LinkedIn ever, at least the most well known. Um and so m anything that you wouldn't you wouldn't be comfortable uh sharing either with your kids or your grandmother. It's generally a good rule of thumb. Um, and keep it uh again, it depends on the person. Keep it professional. Uh is yeah, the other thing is if you wouldn't really talk about it uh in the office, don't really talk about it on LinkedIn. I know some people who are very vocal about religion on LinkedIn and that's their you know, that's their right, they can do what it want do what they want. I also know that's very polarizing. I don't do that. but it's it's uh ultimately up to you. But all of them you know, if you wouldn't tell your kids or your grandmother about it, don't write about it. And then if you uh wouldn't talk about it at work, you know, don't talk about it. Yeah, I mean I think that's a great that's a great tip, you know. My grandmother might be reading this on LinkedIn, so I better write it for her, right? So or yeah. yeah, that's a good tip. so you talk about context switching gears a little bit. You talk about context phases one, two, and three. can you tell me what that means? you Yeah, that was um a favorite m piece of mind from last year I think. Um where understanding U understanding where where we are uh often has to do with understanding where we've been, right? Um and so if you're trying to you know, get to New York and I'm in San Francisco, if I'm in Utah I gotta figure out, okay, where have I been so far and and where where can we keep going from here. So I I called it the the three phases um because generally that's how I've seen the the industry play out. so the first phase, um I call just the internet phase is when you know the dot com er era of companies was the late nineties, early two thousands, obviously the dot com crash. Uh but Procore was built out of that. Autodesk has have been around much, much longer. Um but Procore was founded in two thousand and two or two thousand three or something like that. Um and it came from Tui, uh Court Courtmanch, if I'm saying that pronoun pronouncing that right, who, uh, as the story goes, was trying to build a house, his own house, was frustrated by how much pen and paper was involved and uh that was the starting of Polk War. Um, apocryphal, not um so that was Yeah, the first phase is like turning from pen and paper onto the internet. Second phase being uh the mobile era and so I call that s marked by uh a company called Plan Grid. Um Plan Grid was started in two thousand eleven or two thousand twelve. they They came about right after the iPad came out. Um and this was from Tracy Young and a few others. Tracy Young was the CEO. But she was a I think she was a project manager and one of the things that she she tells stories in these interviews where she would push around a shopping cart on on on site filled with blueprints and hand them out to people. Like, hey, hey, I got I got I got the blueprint for you and hand them out and she's like, Why am I handing out blueprints in a shopping cart? And that became the the genesis of Plan Grid is blueprints on an iPad. Um, so that was the second part of of once we start getting small computers, phones, iPads, things like that. Um that was plenty of grid. And there's uh plenty of other uh companies that came out of this mobile era. Uh so I call this third phase the AI phase, which is you know, pretty similar. as technology advances, different industries will adopt it at different rates. So construction is just another example of one of them where You know, if if the internet really came about the late nineties, it took a few years, but then, you know, Procor was started and and um things like that. If the mobile phone came out in two thousand eight, the iPhone came out in two thousand eight, I think. Um, it took a few years till the iPad, but then, you know, companies like Plant Grid came about. so my thesis was if Chat G P T came out almost four four years ago. you know, now it's bleeding out and you see it very uh quickly. It that's bleeding out into all parts of of the AEC space where AI companies are gonna be everywhere. Uh and it's it is not clear entirely who is gonna be us uh quote unquote winner, but there there'll be lots of people, lots of companies that that do uh very well. There'll be more that uh crash and burn. Um but yeah, so that's generally the the three phases of of the you know, particularly of construction technology. And did you come up with that or is that just something that is widely accepted phases? you I mean I haven't heard of it. May maybe it was something I've mostly come up with it. I've I got a lot of like messages and comments afterwards that like you're missing all these other ones of like the late nineties, the late eighties. I was like, I don't know any technology from the late eighties and construction technology. but uh that's kind of how I phrased it. got a lot of thing gaps that you can fill in but this is a a model, an overarching model. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is very very oversimplified for sure. So yeah, I mean like you mentioned Autodesk, I think it's a good model. I mean, it's interesting. I mean I can I've been in this industry for thirty almost thirty years, so I can see I've seen these things like when I started um talking about stories, like when I started um my first company we had the old dial up modem, you know. Um so internet was really new. I mean I was new to the industry and the internet was new. So um pen pen and paper was the way to go. Like internet was just a sidebar. I mean, maybe email, maybe some websites to check out what was going on. That was it. That was what the internet was. Um you you would check websites and things, um, and it and you had to be like, Hey, I'm gonna be dialing up, can y'all get off the internet? Yeah. So that's how we did it. I mean we had a s I was a my I've always worked at small company, so my first company it was like three of us. Or it was like four of us, three engineers and an admin. So we'd be like, Hey Jody I'm using the internet, can you get off? So my point of that is I've seen that, you know, play out and you know, the internet phase, mobile phase. But but you know, you mentioned Autodesk, they've been there the whole time. Um you know, and but it's interesting to see they've evolved, right? They've brought in, you know it's kinda funny to see like uh how Autodesk, for example, has tried to take on these phases, right? So the internet phase, they had some technologies like Um, I don't know if have you ever heard of BuzzSaw dot com? It's it's sorta like their take on the internet. But it's filing things on the internet, like the plans and so it all it's fun to see how Autodesk has tried to mo and I do think they've done a good job of that, right? Like they've stayed with the times and and then mobile they have they've made b mobile apps and you know things and then obviously AI, they're they're I'm still haven't really seen them bring him a lot of information or a lot of things with AI, but I do see them experimenting with it. But yeah, i I think it's a good model. but what how does that impact how does that help me as a a context owner, a context founder um to understand these phases and what what should I do with that information now in the in phase three point oh. you uh I mean it it's Y you can take it as um it's i uh I mean, it's not uh a hundred percent like actionable, like you go do something with this. but like I think that Mark Twain quote is like, Well, history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. And so if if you really care to you can go back and and and study the early days of a Procor, study the early days of a planned grid 'cause particularly Procor had and this is like as humans as we like oversimplify everything. We're like, yeah, Procor, like that's cool. except when you go back and listen to interviews and and things like that where Procor had you multiple, multiple uh competitors that should have done much better. And there's many times there's a period of there's multiple times they almost went bankrupt. But there's a period in the late two thousands I think Tou Yi, the the founder CEO, says he didn't take a salary for almost two years 'cause the business was that strapped for cash. Wow. And so he was like just scraping by. uh on whatever he could. and so is that is there anything immediately actionable from them? No, but you can it's like all things I think reading through history kind of relieves certain levels of anxiety of like I I love reading through through history, um, relieves certain levels of anxiety of like Okay, like some people other people have gone through worse things than I'm going through right now. That'll be okay. you Yeah, you take you're taking a salary, right? Yeah. So but it does show the I mean entrepreneurship it's it's not for the week. I mean it's it's hard, right? It's hard work. So definitely. You know, if you have people that are yelling at you, that's why 'cause it's it's a hard business. so um I wanted to maybe bring bring in a few final final questions for you, but what other what other things do do you want to hit on today, Derek? Did I wanted to I wanna get a uh first, last, best and worst from from you, Andy. Okay. On uh either uh let's probably go let's go projects. You gotta f put the script on me? Um, project worst or best? Uh let's do all of them. So what do you remember your first project? yeah, I was thinking about that one the other day. I mean, um well, so I worked my very first project was pr so I worked for a company and they they did they were a civil structural company. So Okay. And and meaning there's a lot of these smaller engineering companies and they do ever if they're like the town engineer, right? So they do anything. So what I I mean I've I worked for an engineering it was just an engineering company, is what I'm getting at. So my first project was I designed a septic tank, basically. So yeah. I was like I went to school, I thought I was gonna be designing, you know, buildings and stuff and I'm designing a septic tank. So yeah, that's that's what I did. Okay. I felt my first job. So that was that was really exciting. Uh I don't know how much you can say about the last job you did, the last project you did. Well, you know, now I'm I'm the owner and I'm an EOR of of jobs and I mean I don't know which one to pick 'cause I've got I've always got like ten going. So right now, would be whatever worked on today. So um you I was just working on it with one of my engineers. It's it's a it's a historic home in Charleston, South Carolina. We do all type of work. We do buildings, houses, but this is a historic home and it was built in the early nineteen hundreds. Um and they're they're renovating it. So but that's not the oldest house. I mean tomorrow I'm actually going to a house that was built in the sixteen hundreds in Charleston, South Carolina. So Really? my goodness. Yeah, so um it's it's pretty exciting to see that kind of work get done. It's not a significant renovation, but it's to me it's a significant in terms of the age of the house and everything. So it's just something I mean um so th that's the last project I worked on, I guess. Okay. how about best and worst? you Oh man. Um best project that's a good one. I I guess it was a project it sad to say, I don't think it ever got built, so I won't go with that one. it's still probably the Savannah I I'll probably pick the Savannah project. in a lot of ways it might be the best and worst. I'll go with that for best and worst. Do tell that that's that's that's very interesting. Well, I mean it was a really cool pro it it's a really cool project. It's just a that's a book boutique hotel down in Savannah, Georgia, and so it's it's a multi story hotel, it's steel. Um I love the design of it, I love the project. It w is probably one of the tallest we've worked on. So we we don't do a lot of tall buildings, but that was one of the tallest and Overall the the project went well from a design standpoint and you know it was it was a feather in our cap from that standpoint and still is, really. So really excited about that, but it in some ways the worst project because just it's construction. And we talked about that earlier, how it's hard, right? I mean and you can do everything right and it's still you're dealing with people. So Yeah. so people don't always get along. People have different expectations for schedule, have different expectations for how things are drawn, how things are done. Um people from different parts of the country and you know that might move in here. So because of that they think things differently, like hey this should be done this way, this um so anyway and that's what's one of the really interesting things I think about construction is Um I've got a LinkedIn post I was trying to figure out how to cook it up, but the idea is if you think we have project teams we call right? Which I didn't I didn't bring this project team together, right? I don't even like these people. Sometimes, right? Sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you wanna you wanna be a be a team, you wanna get along and you have to get along. You have to figure out. And so from that standpoint, we were able to do that, right? We were able to mi f finish the job, we were able to work through it and get things done and figure out how to work together. Right. And that that's in that way, that's why it's also the best job because you you learn, you grow, you build together and you get through it. And you know, you leave it on the field. You know, like to the sports analogy, sometimes you you're you're on the field working together with your team and you're yelling at your team because they're not doing this, they're not doing that, but you leave it on the field and you afterward you You go and you hang out and y you're friends and you laugh about what happened out there, you won, you lost, who knows? But but you leave it on the field and you gave it all you had and that's really how how I think construction goes sometime. as as long as you as long as you try to leave it put everything out there that you can and give it all you have, then you can hold your head high at the end. Totally, totally. And that's always the the drama behind it being the best and the worst project of like a something that you're like proud to to build while also having the the difficulty of of working with people, working with project teams that you Yeah, that you might not get along with. I ha I had a had a client who always talked about wanting to get a like a Netflix series on like like the kind of like the real housewives of like a job site or something, like everyone's like John said this to me and can you believe it? And blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah. I mean there's some serious drama going out there, man, I'll tell ya. Yeah. That would be a good that would be a good episode. Um I I had a similar idea lately, um, because um we've been watching Kitchen Nightmares at home at night. sometimes with Gordon Ramsey and I was like, They need to come up with one like engineering nightmares. Yep. Engineering company nightmares, you know, or something. Or maybe AEC nightmares. That would be a good one. Right. Yeah. That'd be great. Well, um Derek, one thing we like to really ask is it's been a fun fun time to get with you today and talk with you, um, but one thing we like to just find out is, you know, how how are you enhancing the world around you lately with your work? Uh good question. Um you How am I enhancing? It's uh a lot of it is just being able to gets the people who who build a world help make their lives easier. Um I the this will be a little bit of a rant, so I apologize in advance. But the reason I I got uh into this type of work, is is for that reason. Is I a somewhat famous blog post in um you gosh. in a in a newsletter called Pirate Wires called Choose Good Quests. Um and is you know, if you think of your career like a video game, you can pick up various quests of things to do. there are various things that you can do in your career that are, you know uh good, neutral, or bad, like, depending on where you stand on like I don't know, uh prediction markets, right? Like I don't I'm not a fan of prediction markets, Calci, Poly Market, all these sports betting, things like that. but there are lots of people working very, very hard to make those a reality. And in my in my mind that that's a bad quest. If I'm just spending my time and energy to make to have more people essentially gambling, they don't call it gambling, but if if I'm spending my time and energy helping more people gamble, I don't think I'm using my time and energy very well. And so when trying to figure out um how to what what to do um with your your time and energy with your with your career. I was trying to figure out like what would that look like? And that also that's personal for everyone. maybe the people I don't know. I guess I've never talked to them so I guess I'm preemptively making a judgment call. But maybe the people who are running these like prediction market companies think of themselves as doing good. I don't know. but it's yeah, it's personal for everyone, so it's for me a lot of it was like, okay, what's something that I s see that is would that would be doing good and for me that was being able to help the people who you know people like yourself, architects, engineers, you know, construction people, because that's been an really underserved place. and I've wanted to help push in that way. And this is kind of an extension of uh the the skill sets I have. And so um you It is kind of a cross section between two places of like what I'm good at, what I believe I can make a difference in is being able to help you by helping, you know, these technology founders uh reach more reach more people, reach more of their customers. I do think there is a lot of good that comes from from that, 'cause as long as it's a good like product and they're not, you know, ripping someone off. if you have something that can help provide value to someone else, And you believe it, then uh you've gotta do everything in your power to um to make it happen. Yeah, I mean if you're if this tool is really that good, I mean you might be helping the next Procor get their message out there and they were sitting out there for years and they couldn't get it out there, so now they can if they just call you, right? Yeah. Yeah, I would love uh I wish I wish uh I could know who the next Procor was and go find them, but um you know, who whoever that might be for the AI age, um yeah, they'll have to they'll have to get their their name out there somehow. and you know, uh I am one way to do so. Yeah, they might be sitting out there right now with no salary and they're just like, Man, I gotta get this tool out there Yeah. Yeah. So awesome Derek. Well, um hey, it was a good good interview today. Is there any final messages you want to leave for the audience? No, this is this is great, Andy. Awesome. And how do how do people find you? Uh LinkedIn is is the best way. just my name, Derek Wong. if you wanna reach out to me through email it's just Derek at buildaspress dot com. Okay, awesome. Well thanks Derek. Take care. God bless. Thanks everybody for listening to Athens. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to today's episode of Enhance. And please leave a like, subscribe, or follow, and we'll see you next time.